Mets people seem to have the idea Boras has influence over the doctors, but Boras said that isn’t so — though he contended his own research does tell him pitchers returning after Tommy John surgery do better long-term with lower innings totals, naming Shaun Marcum and a few others who exceeded previous totals, and later ran into more arm trouble.
“These are doctors’ opinions,” Boras said. “And club officials are not determining how many innings he can pitch. Matt Harvey would love to pitch. But the surgeon who saved his career and other surgeons consulted have said that for maximum safety he is not to exceed 180 innings for the year.”
Source: Jon Heyman, CBS Sports
Well, that escalated quickly.
Seemingly since the beginning of the year there has been general agreement that everyone involved was on the same page as far as the Harvey rehab. Now, we see agent Scott Boras using his personal media mouthpiece/slave Heyman to go the nuclear route. This seems like a pissing match between Sandy Alderson and Boras, two guys used to being the smartest ones in the room. Make some popcorn, pull up a chair and watch the show.
There are an awful lot of claims in the article about what the doctors allegedly recommend, without, you know, any quotes from doctors. It’s an appeal to authority without any actual authoritative information. Where are the peer-reviewed studies that doctors so frequently mention? Shoot, at this point, let’s just start with Boras’ own research. Put it out to the public and let’s see if it holds up to critical review, even if it’s just lay people.
Instead, we’re told by the mouthpiece that Boras has his own study and geez Louise – what more could you possibly need?
It’s also hard to ignore that Boras is directly challenging Alderson, saying that this is not a club decision. Until Boras or the doctors are the ones paying Harvey’s contract, it’s 100 percent a club decision. My expectation is that Alderson is assembling all the available information available and making the best possible decision for the future of Harvey. As a deliberate, methodical individual – it’s what we should expect from Alderson.
As Harvey’s agent, Boras absolutely should be out front and center advocating for the health and well-being of his client. None of us should be put off or taken aback that he’s doing this. It’s one of many ways that he earns the money he’s paid. Good for Boras, even if, in my opinion, he’s overplaying his hand and his timing stinks.
In a way, this is a type of creative friction, one that we wish we saw more of between Alderson and Terry Collins. The difference here is that Boras doesn’t depend on Alderson for his continued employment and so he can turn the volume up to 11 and not worry too much about any consequences.
Hopefully, this causes the Mets to double-check all of their sources to confirm that they are indeed proceeding with the best possible plan in regards to Harvey’s continued recovery. And if it ends up with Alderson laying down the smack on Boras, much like he did with the umpires union way back when, so much the better.
Butter and no salt on my popcorn, please.
Boras is speaking with alarming clarity about a hard 180 innings limit, which is 14 innings from now.
If that’s the case, and if Matt Harvey doesn’t speak up immediately — today, and forcefully — then he can stay in NY and drink lots of beverages.
If Harvey shuts himself down at 180, he’s dead to me.
If Harvey shuts himself down at 180, he’s dead to me.
I didn’t need to read anything further. James, you summed up my feelings exactly. There’s a chance that Boras has gone rogue on Harvey, in which case he should be terminated. The ball is in Harvey’s court. He has the oppty to set this straight and reclaim his place. Or let others speak for him and shut himself down. If that latter happens, he’s dead to all of us.
JFC. Having Duda, Murphy and Cuddy out are bad enough and now this? JMFC.
There are so many variables tied to the 180 inning rule.
Every pitcher has a different body, a different pitching motion, a different reaction to stressful situations.
Some days a pitcher can throw a lot of pitches in a few innings—other days he can sail through more innings on fewer pitches.
Some pitchers rely more on breaking pitches while some throw mostly heat. How does that impact the stress on the arm?
I’m sure there are many other variables that might be considered. The 180 inning rule is too general in nature. The medics, the baseball people and (yes!) the agents have to get more sophisticated in developing guidelines for each pitcher.
That’s all correct, Norme, but if Boras and Matt insist on a 180 limit at this late hour, that puts Sandy Alderson in a very tough spot.
Ted Berg just wrote about it and, I think, got it wrong. He’s talking about the Mets shutting down Matt Harvey. The issue here is completely about Matt’s willingness (or unwillingness) to continue to proceed cautiously and to go beyond 180.
Boras is not calling 180 a soft number. He’s saying it’s the number and he’s drawing a line.
I am putting this entirely on Matt Harvey’s shoulders right now. If he wanted to stop at 180, he should have said so a long time ago, not in an email from his agent in late August.
It’s an unfortunate spot for Alderson but it’s not particularly tough.
Harvey can take the mound when the club tells him to or he can be suspended.
I surely don’t think the Mets want it to come to a suspension. I can’t recall ever seeing that. Not a realistic option.
There has to be some mutual agreement here.
If Matt doesn’t think he should pitch, he shouldn’t pitch. He can stay in NY.
I don’t like the seeds of doubt that Boras is planting here, or the sour taste this leaves in my mouth.
And what I think should happen is that Matt Harvey tells his agent to put a muzzle on it. Boras works for Matt. They work together. In unison. If Matt isn’t happy with Boras, he can give 15% of his next contract to somebody else.
Well, at least this settles the debate about who starts Game One (and potentially Game Five) in the NLDS.
Matt can have Game Four . . . if it’s not too much trouble.
Matt Harvey and the Mets need to get on the same page. And address it quickly. He’s going to bring a sh*tstorm into the clubhouse, with media all over him. Not a time for distractions.
Clearly the Mets don’t want it to come to a suspension.
But you don’t let the tail wag the dog. I know this sounds anti-player and anti-safety. But I say it with the expectation that Alderson & Co. have done their due diligence on the matter and have determined they’re not putting Harvey at undue risk. I don’t believe even the most anti-Alderson person out there would describe him as “reckless.” The Mets have a vested interest in Harvey being healthy over the next XX amount of years that surpasses their interest in him pitching in the 2015 playoffs. It’s not rational to think they’re just throwing him to the wolves here.
Harvey is not injured now and his camp has not produced one shred of compelling evidence that him continuing to pitch puts him at undue risk. So, to fulfill his contractual obligations, he has to pitch when the Mets tell him to or face the consequences.
agree 1000%. For Boras to say this is not the team’s decision is absolutely delusional and preposterous. I also agree that Harvey needs to address this. Was this something he and Boras spoke about? Or was this Boras mouthing off without Harvey’s knowledge? If Harvey wants to be the true King of NY, he need only announce in a 4 pm press conference that he’s fired Scott Boras and signed with Jay Z, and expects the ball in Game 1 of the NLDS
My take, based on reports, is that Matt & Boras are in step on this issue.
Agents work for players, especially when it comes to the dirty work.
This is entirely up to Matt Harvey.
That said, sure, we can sit here and talk tough about ordering Matt to pitch against his wishes, but that doesn’t seem like it would achieve positive results. More like a recipe for disaster.
We can trade him this winter. To Minnesota.
Look: Matt Harvey has never gotten his big payday. He wants to sign for $200 million with the Yankees. I get that. He doesn’t want to imperil his future. But this is no way to handle things. If he bags out now, at this point, after all Alderson and the Mets have attempted to do in good conscience, then I’ll lose respect for him.
what reports are you citing James that say Matt and Boras are in step on this?
I think Matt Harvey still has options. If he agrees with shutting down at 180, then I would let him finish off his 180 innings in LV, then send him home.
But really, I think this is just bluster to get clicks for Heyman. Best thing for Met fans would be not to click on Heyman links.
I thought the Heyman article was very strong and balanced. Yes, he has a solid contact with Boras and gave Scott a platform to express his position, but he also included quotes from Sandy Alderson expressing the Mets point of view.
I don’t know, I have no quarrel with Heyman on this one. A reporter doing his job.
I’m not questioning Heyman’s skill as a reporter. I’m commenting based on morals and affiliation. I have followed him in the past back to his days with Newsday. He was a fair reporter, but then his affiliation with Boras tainted him. He is a Yankee fan and has been slinging Mets mud for a long time now. He was a key reporter on the ” Mike Piazza is gay” story. And it’s gone down hill ever since.
Most people don’t pay attention to who is writing what. But now with clicks, fans can have an impact. Met fans should make use of the power they have.
Heyman had a great story and ran with it and he would have been derelict in his duties if he didn’t.
But just like the presence of Alan Colmes didn’t make the Fox Network balanced, neither does the presence of “Alderson’s position” or “Alderson suggests” make this piece an even take on things.
This piece paints Boras in a heroic light and Alderson is the guy ignoring doctors’ advice. It’s not a hatchet job but it’s pretty easy to determine who’s feeding the reporter information.
My reading of it was that Alderson was in the right. I thought he got to state his position cleanly and accurately. I didn’t read this and conclude that the Mets looked bad. I read it and thought, “WTF are you pulling now, Matt Harvey.”
Not a Sherman fan, btw.
Matt Harvey during his career averages 6 2/3 innings a start. Over the course of a 162 game schedule he would get 32 starts. 27 starts would come to 179 innings.
This would mean that Harvey needed to skip a turn once a month just to stay within the Boras innings limit for the regular season. Boras sent the memo to the Mets at the 140 inning mark or after August 11th, when it should have been sent out at the end of April if he was paying attention.
Alderson said it has been his understanding that they mostly need to avoid “fatigue” or a loss of “rhythm” (that means he can’t be expected to pick up and pitch after a lengthy layoff)…….”For a guy to say to us on the 29th of August ‘180 innings and then you’re going to shut him down ………’ don’t call me seven months later and tell me you’re pulling the rug out from under me, not after all we’ve done to protect the player.” I have to agree with Alderson on this one. The due diligence of disputed innings limits was not addressed early enough by Boras and Alderson believes that the Mets are not abusing their player.
This type of crap is disruptive in a pennant race and Harvey should consider replacing his agent because of it.
Yeah – if Boras came out with this without Harvey’s knowledge, it’s ground for dismissal. Harvey will not have any problem getting paid regardless of who his agent is. The distraction this brings to the team and to the clubhouse at this point in time is completely disruptive. The Nationals must be thrilled. Harvey needs to address this now – asap – and the vets in the clubhouse – Uribe, Cuddyer, DW, Grandy, Colon – this is when they earn their money.
Boras can kiss my a$$. I think its more likely Harvey fires Boras than not pitch in the post season. This may be agent CYA just in case the worst happens.
The innings limit is soft. In an interview with James Andrews, he said there is no specific science behind the rehab situation. Every person is different and responds differently. We have explored in this space the difference between innings and pitch limits, and Smoltz made it clear not every pitch is the same. An 8 pitch inning with 2 outs on first pitch swings and a K after a few foul balls is 1 inning, and it is not the same as a 24 pitch inning with a walk, two full count strike outs. I am certain that every pitch is being “weighted” to make a reasonably adjusted pitch count.
Harvey also had an extended rehab time that added months beyond the standard 12 month return.
All just news for a so far noiseless new dayi n baseball.
I think Harvey is totally in on this and that it is a huge, huge story.
It could blow up in any number of ways — very possibly in Matt’s face.
From From Kristie Ackert NYDN
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/mets-won-shut-matt-harvey-hits-180-innings-article-1.2349019
This entire soap opera is disheartening and should have been discussed behind closed doors. Instead, we have arrogant claims, too little information, and bad feelings heading into what should be a very positive last month of the regular season.
This is not how a professional handles his business. This is publicity-seeking for branding purposes, and does very little to create a healthy working relationship.
I borderline hope Harvey gets traded this off-season, just so we don’t have to deal with this for another X number of years.
Harvey not confirmed as starter in Washington next week.
John Ricco just said he will make his next scheduled start in DC
I think the big question is “How the Hell do we get here!!!???” without a discussion and agreement at the beginning of the season?????
As for when he pitches—that is actually up to Matt Harvey.
You play the game for a chance to get to the postseason and win a championship,Nothing else matters.I thought it eas the most ridiculous thing ever when the Nats shut Strasburg down with a chance to win a WS.Injuries can strike on your first pitch in your first start,there is no magic way to avoid injury.I believe Harvey wants to win and his agent is blowing smoke.
Boras is such a pot stirrer. This drama is not what this team needed right now. I hope Harvey does the right thing and tells his blowhard agent to put a sock in it.
Terrific post, Brian.
Solve this easily, trade Harvey,(AAA-2b) Herrera, Nimmo to Seattle for SP Walker, 2b Cano, and $75 Million. Sign Cepedes for 5 yr.s– $110m with 2yr vesting options @ $17.5m,and if he wants ,an op-out after 3 yrs. Harvey can then rest in Oct., Matz will take his place post-season. No arbitration come Jan.-Feb 2016. LGM