With the Mets’ 4-2 loss to the Milwaukee Brewers on Saturday, they clinched a protected (in the Top 10) draft pick in the 2014 MLB draft.
Some fans openly rooted for the team to lose so that the pick could be secured, and the backlash against these fans from Mets beat writer/Eamonn McEneany-wannabe/clown Andy Martino and broadcaster Gary Cohen has been strong and short-sighted.
On Friday night, Cohen launched into a long-winded lecture (which we’ve sadly had to endure more and more of this year) chastising fans who have supported the idea of playing for a protected pick.
Martino tweeted this out Sunday morning: “Congratulations to the weirdos who care about the Mets getting a protected pick, weekend going well. He’ll be here to help in 2018.”
Then there’s this steaming pile courtesy of Tom Watson. But can we really expect better from a blog that once employed Greg Pomes?
What Cohen, Martino, Watson, and everyone else who rip fans (overtly or subliminally) for rooting for a protected pick fail to realize is not only the many long-term benefits of the pick, but also the short-term benefits as well. They also seem to have forgotten about recent Mets history.
In a season where the team already has been eliminated from the playoffs, there is zero benefit to winning meaningless games, especially when those games could have an impact on the future of the franchise.
When you have a team like the Mets, who are still building for a brighter future – one that can be sustained – accumulating as much talent through the draft is imperative, and usually the higher picks turn into better players.
While Martino may be right in that we probably won’t see the pick in the majors until 2018, you have to look at what the Mets are going to be that year to understand the importance of it.
Zack Wheeler and Matt Harvey will be in the primes of their respective careers, David Wright and Daniel Murphy will be at the tail end of their careers, Travis d’Arnaud will be 30, and who knows what the rest of the team will look like.
Being able to keep calling up good, young players as the stars of yesteryear begin to fade away is how you build a franchise to sustain success. Just ask the Cardinals.
In 2018 is it going to matter whether the Mets were 74-88 or 77-75 in 2013? Of course not, especially if it means that 74 wins allowed them to get a better player to help the team in 2018.
The pick also helps the Mets get better in 2014, because now there are no excuses for not signing say, Shin-Soo Choo because he would cost the team a draft pick.
Rememeber, surrendering a first or second-round pick is something that a confidential source told ESPN’s Adam Rubin last week the team was unwilling to do.
Adding an impact bat in the outfield like Choo immediately makes the Mets a better team by deepening their lineup by adding a great on-base guy who has power and can play a more capable defense than Lucas Duda.
If the Mets didn’t have a protected pick, it would be hard to imagine them making a serious run at Choo, or any other free agent who would provide an upgrade at the cost of a draft pick.
People can criticize Sandy Alderson, J.P. Ricciardi and Paul DePodesta all they want for that stance, but the simple fact remains that one of the main reasons the Mets are in such dire straits is that their previous GM was so willing to surrender high draft picks in exchange for free agents the likes of Moises Alou and Francisco Rodriguez.
The Mets missed out on Mike Trout because of Rodriguez, Todd Frazier because of Alou, Kyle Drabek (part of Roy Halladay trade) for Billy Wagner, and going back even further, Jeremy Bonderman for Kevin Appier.
Granted, not all of those names have turned out well (or were even taken with picks that would’ve been the Mets’), but those are some decent players that could’ve radically altered the course of the Mets franchise.
Imagine Bonderman and his 5.9 WAR (!) on the 2006 Mets, or Trout in center field the past two years, or Frazier at first base, and perhaps the Mets drafting someone other than Ike Davis in 2008, solidifying another position. Or maybe Oliver Perez never becomes a Met because John Maine, instead of being in the starting rotation can go to the bullpen when Duaner Sanchez ruins his career over the munchies.
But instead the Mets had a minor league system that before Alderson arrived had Kirk Nieuwenhuis as a top five player in the organization. The way the Mets minors is currently constructed, Nieuwenhuis wouldn’t crack the top 20.
The Mets have been able to rebuild the farm system because they’ve drafted well, made trades to acquire good minor leaguers, and haven’t surrendered a single draft pick in three years.
The pick allows the Mets to be able to build for the future while also making leaps towards winning now.
That is why it is such a big deal that the Mets got the protected pick. It affords them the best of both worlds and allows them to salvage the most of a season that was heading nowhere from the very beginning.
But I guess keeping an eye on the future while making a rational argument for losing a few meaningless September games makes me a bad fan.
Joe Vasile is a play-by-play announcer for Widener Pride football and host of “Ball Four” on WTSR in Trenton. Follow him on Twitter at @JoeVasilePBP.
Great article. Don’t know any writers who got slammed for suggesting that the Mets might be better off losing… (tee hee)
Anywho, one point.
The Met rebirth of farm system is still 90% trade based.
Because while Sandy Alderson is the master of the trade, his scouting team and decision making in the draft room completely suck.
Still better off with a first round pick than without a pick.
Actually, no … not really.
Making some assumptions: the Mets have a finite amount of resources, and they will spend all of the available resources. Stop laughing, I’m only half serious here.
If you are not good at drafting – and Sandy Alderson so far clearly is not as good as his divisional opponents – it is entirely possible that using the $3MM every year to improve the team by 1/2 a win on a veteran, is better than the lottery tickets we are using with this front office.
But yes, I suppose its better to have the pick. Even if you just trade away the poor soul.
Joe,
I think there is a difference between recognizing the value of a Protected Pick and “rooting for failure.” For me it was win-win: I could find encouragement in another OF assist from JL, a SB from EYJ, and couple of successful AB’s by the likes of Centeno & Tovar and not reap angst over a loss. Those who suggested tanking deserve a scolding.
+1!!!!
It’s one thing to root for players to not play the game right and another thing to watch less talented players trying their best but falling up short.
You’re right. I wouldn’t necessarily say I watched the games and rooted for the other team to win, but I wasn’t upset if they lost, not by a longshot.
The MLB has created this mess and blaming fans, who cannot purchase contracts or play the game, is outrageous. Fans cheer for what they cheer for. Alderson has made a PLAN entirely based on fixing the farm and developing the future. Selig has created a spot for about 5 teams each year that represent those on the bubble for a protected draft. Having been burned ever so recently, that sting still hurts…remember, we were lawyering up to have our pick protected from Pitt’s failure to sign. Thats how much the Mets think about the draft, and the potential to sign a FA. Maybe those of us not worried about the difference between 78 wins and 74 wins in ’13 were conditioned by the few ways this team can improve so that they become playoff caliber. Cheering to win? Every game. Panicked about losing? not at all….this year.
There is something wrong with a system that guarantees a reward for losing. 8 teams make the playoffs and should draft in the first round in order of record. The other 22 go into the weighted ping pong ball hopper and get the pick by luck.
2nd round is for the teams that lost a qualified free agent by order of worst record and no team loses a first round pick by signing one. They are called free agents, aren’t they? How really free was Micheal Bourne last year? Ask Mr Bourne if he got the shaft. Rounds 3 and beyond can go in order of reverse standing. MLB bastardized the system and should be ashamed. A fan should be able to enjoy a meaningless win without the subterfuge of a lost opportunity.
I think its fair to evaluate the ability of a team to scout on the top 100 players. At some point after that, it becomes a total crapshoot. It might be that way once you get past 50, but let’s look at Alderson’s record:
Nimmo
Fulmer
Mazzoni
Verrett
Cecchini
Plawecki
Reynolds
Stankiewicz
Smith
Church
Wilson
Meisner
That’s eight players in two years, 12 in three. 12 of the top 300 baseball players. We have zero major leaguers.
And we are already facing Jose Fernandez, Anthony Rendon, Denard Span (courtesy of Alex Meyer), and Alex Wood. Its possible that combined, the Phillies, Nats and Braves had less picks to work with since 2010 than Sandy Alderson had alone.
Every single team in our division has already gotten ML production out of the draft since Sandy got here. I don’t see a ML player in our group listed above until 2015, *if that*.
correction, the Phillies haven’t gotten production out of their top 100 picks. Of course Cody Asche was drafted in 2011 and looks to be the Phillies new starting 3B. He was drafted in the 4th round, making him not eligible for the comparison.
I think it’s unreasonable to expect players to get to the majors two years after they’re drafted. It was a huge thing when Harvey was drafted in 2010 and was in the majors in 2012. And he was a college player. It’s even more difficult when we’re taking HS players.
Alderson absolutely needs to be judged on the players he drafted. But it needs to be a reasonable standard.
I am judging him by a standard Brian. I am judging him by the standard of the guys he competes with: the Phillies, the Nationals and the Braves.
By my count, there were some 13 players that have made a major league contribution out of the top 121 players in the 2011 draft (which covers round 3). There have already been 5 in 2012 draft – and that is impossibly fast.
It’s not impossible to get players to play in the ML. You just have to, you know, make sure they’ve played in something beyond the American Legion team … and you aren’t drafting a top 50 guy above a top 12 guy.
That’s around 11 percent – I’m not sure that’s a reasonable standard.
Besides, the goal isn’t to get them to the majors the quickest — it’s to draft and develop the best players. If Nimmo doesn’t make the majors until the end of 2016, I’m okay with that, as long as he has plays for a dozen or more years and puts up 30+ WAR.
I did a quick check on the 2008 draft. I think I had 8 guys from the first round alone made it to the majors by 2010, and another four by 2011. Then you’ve got Kimbrell, Worley, Espinosa in the third round all make it to the majors. That doesn’t include Anthony Gose, who developed so fast that by 2010 he was a major part in two trades.
No, I think the proportions are quite reasonable.
Yes, if Nimmo gets to the majors at the end of 2016 and gets us 30 WAR, that’ll be grand. But right now we’ve seen him at two different levels of baseball and he hasn’t been able to dominate one of them.
We now have 24 player seasons among our 12 picks. Out of them, do we have maybe one season where any one of them played were among the top three at their position in their league? – and none of the ’11 or ’12 players have put together back to back years.
It’s not unreasonable for us to expect, with 4% of the quality players available to Sandy Alderson, that you have one really great season among 24. Takes time? Sure. Clock’s on.
We have no major leaguers because of those 12 players you listed, Nimmo, Fulmer, Cecchini, Stankiewicz were taken out of HS, and all the draftees this year obviously wouldn’t have made it yet. Mazzoni and Verrett will presumably start 2014 in AAA, Plawecki was just named an Organizational Co-Player of the Year, Stankiewicz was not signed, and was taken by the Red Sox this year. Hardly a failure.
You can’t judge Alderson/DePodesta’s drafting against the Phillies, Nats, & Braves because they drafted with different strategies and with different needs to fill. Very unfair to evaluate these drafts now rather than 5-6 years down the road (e.g.- the 07 & 08 drafts were HORRIBLE).
I’ll give you a moment to check on which high school player was taken directly after our brilliant GM took a kid that had never even played high school ball.
Here’s a hint: the next guy in that draft will be the Marlin’s ace for the next six years. I guess not all high schoolers take six years to make it to the majors.
And to me, Stankiewicz IS a failure. Drafting a high school kid is risky because in the first place, he might not sign with you. And now he’s playing, and playing well, for another team. But the kicker is this: because we drafted Stankewicz, we didn’t draft two other players that are now in the major leagues.
One of them was drafted by the Braves, and by 2013 he was in the major leagues, beating the NY Mets. Welcome to Alex Wood.
I’m sorry, but it is grossly unfair to dispositively grade a draft two years in. Moreover, the main player you cite to support your argument, Jose Fernandez, is an equally unfair comparison. It’s extremely rare for such a young pitcher to make the jump to the majors so quickly and dominate. Harvey did it, but he was coming from college, not High School. There were 12 other teams besides the Mets who passed on him. Do they have horrific scouting departments too? Were Cubs and Cardinals fans back in the 80s lamenting their scouting departments when a young Gooden was dominating? Additionally, Rendon was drafted before the Mets picked and it’s not like he set the world on fire in his first 351 ABs in the majors. The only players from the first round of the 2011 draft that made significant contributions to their teams in 2013 were the aforementioned Fernandez and Cole who was the #1 overall pick(maybe Sonny Gray but he only pitched in 12 games.) Joe also makes a very valid point that you can’t cherry pick a few teams to compare the Mets too just because they are in our division because they have vastly different needs and strategies.
All that being said, I was not a fan of the Cecchini pick and Nimmo hasn’t progressed as I had hoped. But, Plawecki has developed nicely and Leathersich could be in the majors next year. It’s quite possible 2011 and 2012 could turn out to be awful drafts, but we have to give it at least a couple more years to pan out.
What sort of horsecrap is that, that we can’t compare ourselves to other GMs IN OUR OWN DIVISION?
Atlanta:
Takes Jason Heyward in 2007; ML 2010
Takes Freddie Freeman in 2007; ML 2010
Takes Kimbral in 2008; ML 2010
Takes Mike Minor in 2009; ML 2010
Takes Andrelton Simmons in 2010; ML in 2012
We’ll have the 10th pick in the draft this year. We took a high school first baseman that was a lottery ticket, just like Cecchini and Nemo before him. Let’s see if Sandy doesn’t screw it up again.
apparently its only grossly unfair to decide about a draft two years in when you are looking at teams that don’t come from Georgia.
I’m just as unhappy as you with the drafting strategy Sandy has employed in his 2 years with the Mets(which i’m not quite sure what it is), but I do think that you have evaluate Sandy based on the strategy that he took.
Regarding promotions and Fernandez; I think it’s safe to say if any of the other 29 teams employed him, he would have not started the year in the majors. In hindsight, the Marlins look brilliant for doing it, but they took a HUGE!! risk (has there been a bigger risk in recent memory?)
Sandy seems to me to be on the conservative side with prospects promotions. They must play a certain number of games before being promoted and there is absolutely no skipping the upper minors.
If the Mets had drafted Fernandez, he probably would have used the same game plan that he is using for Syndergaard. NY Penn league in 11, probably Savannah to 1st half 2012, 2nd half in St. Lucie. 2013 would have him starting at AA, with a late season promotion to AAA. 2014 he would start at AAA and he would probably debut in June of 2014 (after the Super 2 Date)
The Mets took a “similar type” risk with Mejia and look how that turned out. Then again they took a similar risk in Gooden and look how that turned out. Alderson’s drafting makes it a moot point though.
A lot of people (especially in the Organization in 2010) viewed Meija as eventually ending up a reliever so to them the perceived risk was lower. There still a jump between AA and MLB, but less if you head to the bullpen instead of the Starting rotation.
Syndergaard and Montero in years past, before long term salary planning became so important, would both be on the 2014 Opening Day roster – as both are ready to hold their own in bigs (Noah pitched better than Wheeler last year, except Wheeler got some AAA in; Montero totally succeeded in AAA over an extended period)…but both won’t show up until mid-June to save $$ long term, barring injuries to others that force Sandy’s hand. Even DeGrom likely falls into that ready for Opening Day scenario, although he is a rung down from those 2.
Since you can’t make the rules, you have to play by them even if you don’t like them.
Of course we can compare ourselves to teams in our division. And certainly the Braves have drafted better than us over the last 5-10 years. My only points were that its unfair to compare players taken by a few select teams in an isolated draft that was only two years ago and that it was too early to definitively grade the 2011 draft. I’m not too happy with the way the 2011 and 2012 have turned out so far either, but it’s just too early to declare them an absolute bust or sucess. Jose Fernandez could tear the anterior capsule of his shoulder and never be effective again. Nimmo could develop into a solid OF. We just don’t know yet. Scott Kazmir made it to the majors two years after he was drafted and in 2005 that was looking like a very nice pick, but over 10 years after he was drafted its not looking like such a great anymore. I whole heartedly agree that the 2011 draft doesn’t look good for us so far, but we have to give it more time to pan out. Just because a team is down 4-0 in the 3rd inning doesn’t mean the game is over yet. Of course I’d rather be the team up 4-0 than down….
I thought the Mets getting a guaranteed pick was stupendous. Wise man say, “it’s better to have a top ten pick and not need it, than to need a top ten pick and not have it”.
This is a fantastic discussion by the way….
Why do the fans even care about the protected pick???????????????????????
Because it was Alderson that would not sign a qualified free agent to not lose his first round pick, soooooooooooooo, now we are praying/hoping it is protected, sooooooooooooo, we can sign a good player and maybe become a better team. It has become a psychological game or bullstuff between the front office and the fans.
First, we cannot sign a good player because we do not have a protected pick. Then, get our ass kisser to write in his column that the fans shouldn’t hope for a protected pick because that means losing. However, the fans want you to sign a good player and not have the excuses, Loserson. Otherwise, when do you remember Mets fans so in love with a protected pick?
One more loss and they’d have gotten a 7th pick instead of 10th (and a 37th instead of 40th), correct? Maybe at #7 they draft an unflawed power hitter who might be unavailable at #10…Niese should never have started Sunday – they should have made an excuse, and sent out the Kiddie Corps and tanked and got the #7 pick. Poll the average Met fan in January and 95% won’t remember if they won or lost the season’s last game.
Draft has not gone well the past few years, and it is early for some of the high school picks, but even considering age, Sandy and Co. do not get a strong grade on past 3 years…but the system is nonetheless laden with pitching prospects. Some can be used, others traded. Plawecki is either another chip soon, or Darnaud is. Astute moves are needed. We need the system to start churning out lethal hitters.
That is a bad analogy. Miami is subject to same “rules” and brought up Fernandez early anyway. Mets could do same with Noah and Montero, who I firmly believe are both ready to be on Opening Day roster next year. Because of the “rules”, the Mets will hide the fact that these ready-to-go guys could be on Opening roster by saying they need more seasoning. When in fact they are “choosing to camoflage things” so they can delay their arrivals until mid-June as it will save significant $$ in subsequent years down the road.
The Marlins will be penalized for “not following the rules”.
Both Fernandez and Wheeler made their debuts this year. Fernandez however, will become a FA 1 year earlier than Wheeler (2019 for Fernandez 2020 for Wheeler). He will likely also start getting arbitration money 1 year earlier(2015 for Fernandez and 2016 for Wheeler).
The second point on arbitration is purely a money issue and is debatable whether it is worth keeping them down, but the first point is absolutely a baseball decision. Giving up 20 days of a rookie’s first season is well worth the extra year of control at the end. That simply is the reason why no prospect should start in the majors(unless you plan to send them down at some point)