There is a camp of Mets fans that refuse to entertain the idea of trading any prospect for a player. Apparently when Milton Freidman said, “There is no such thing as a free lunch,” they weren’t paying attention.
When news broke on Thursday of the Mets interest in White Sox shortstop Alexei Ramirez this faction came out in full force. One Twitter user even suggested that the Mets offer up Dillon Gee.
What’s the point of having minor league depth if you’re not going to use it to improve the major league team when the time comes?
The fact of the matter is that if the Mets are going to acquire any player of significance in a trade, they’re going to have to give up more than spare parts. The White Sox need young pitching, the Mets have young pitching. The White Sox are looking to ditch a shortstop, the Mets need a shortstop. There is a price, but what is a reasonable price?
For Ramirez, a 33-year-old all-glove, hit-just-good-enough shortstop who has played 155+ games in each of the last five years, the price is going to be high. Nobody is suggesting Noah Syndergaard or Steven Matz go to Chicago for Ramirez, but Gabriel Ynoa or Robert Whalen might not be enough. If they want Michael Fulmer, Sandy Alderson should pull the trigger in a minute.
The hypothetical addition of Ramirez up the middle immediately strengthens the team not only defensively, but it allows Wilmer Flores to come off the bench, providing depth there for the team as well.
Does Ramirez have flaws? Yeah. Show me a player without flaws. They don’t exist, unless that player is Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds in his prime.
What do you think? Should the Mets try to trade for Ramirez? What would you give up to get him?
I like the guy… But, he’s 33 years old… The White sox want to sell high… He’s 33 years old…
It isn’t that I wouldn’t give up the talent, it’s this too:
http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/wilmer-flores-probably-earns-a-job/
I would rather see Flores for a year at least. We are not losing some great opportunity in Ramirez anyway.
at the price tags you mention, sure. I think you’ve seriously undervalued the guy.
There’s a pretty shot you’ll get 5-7 “wins” out of the guy, at a very reasonable price, at a position of short supply.
So let’s play GM. “Hey Sandy, it’s Rick Hahn from Chicago over here. I know you need a SS, and I’m moving Ramirez. I need some ML ready pitching, and I need to build my system. I’m looking for Jon Niese, plus you can pick one of Leathersich, Lara or Mazzoni.”
You still a buyer Joe?
On the other line is the Mariners.
“Sandy, I can’t stand having Saunders on the team anymore. Help me out here. I need some help in the pen and some young starting pitching.
Josh Edgin and Matt Bowman. What do you think?”
Presumably, for Jon Niese, Josh Edgin, and two fungible minor leaguers, you have resolved SS and LF, and kept the core young pitching intact and basically kept your payroll roughly intact.
Ramirez is getting 10 million and Saunders will get 3 million in arbitration. I don’t know what world adding 13 million keeps the payroll “roughly intact” but it sure aint the one the Wilpons live in, especially after you add all of the other arbitration raises like Murphy Gee and Duda.
Duda et al are decisions unto themselves; what is at question is whether or not these deals realistically impact the payroll.
And they really don’t. I don’t think of adding roughly $4MM a year to address two positions for two years as making an impact on payroll.
“Decisions onto themselves” – wow, you really think they’re going to non-tender Murphy Duda and Gee? These are payments that are going to be made and the Wilpons are only going to give so much money to payroll. Niese is owed $7 million this year so you’re adding $6 million to whatever the team payroll is going to be. Shouldn’t be a problem for a NY team but it is, sadly it is.
I wouldn’t even take a breath to say “yes” to Ramirez for Niese and a minor piece
5-7 wins out of Ramirez? Not at this point. He’s a 3-4 win player at this point.
and to finish the conversation:
“Hey Rick. Take Niese and Leathersich, I’ll start drawing up the paperwork.”
Joe … I was referring to over a two year period, so I guess we have a deal.
Leathersich and Niese it is!
Sorry but it’s not like Ramirez is the long term solution at 33. Joe at 10 million dollars you have to believe that these “rumors” are just that. I don’t see how this ties into Alderson’s way of upgrading as a long term solution. His style is to dredge up reclamation projects to hold the fort. It’s just back page fodder. Realistically the Mets will have to trade salary for salary somewhere along the road. Helluva of an upgrade for one season? Does that sound like SA’s method of doing things? And how will the FO accommodate Ramirez and his 10 million into the payroll?
4 signed players – 54 million
11 Arb hearings -26 million+
9 minimum sal. -4.5 million
Ramirez 2015 -10 million
You wind up with a 100 million dollar payroll. Sorry but I don’t see Ramirez here
Team option on Ram for 2016, and I see 2 years as nearly forever.
You give up some ML payroll to get him (Niese has $16MM in the next two years), and you basically have a wash.
If the Mets want to increase their chances of being a playoff team, they should upgrade at shortstop. Ramirez is an upgrade at SS but I also believe Lowrie (MBLTR est 3yr/$30m) and Cabrera (MLBTR est 3yr/$29m) are also upgrades and they won’t cost any more players in trade. All come at pretty much the same price.
I think Ramirez is the best of the three fielding wise and a better than average hitting SS. Ramirez is only a maximum two year commitment which maintains payroll flexibility.
It really comes down to payroll. The only way the Mets can take on a $10m SS and an outfielder ($5.7m- $11.6m range ) is to trade one of Colon $11m, Niese ($7m) or Gee ($5.1m) and Murphy ($8.3m) and non tender EY Jr ($2.3m). Based on this, maybe a Saunders or a Van Slyke type is the caliber that will be obtained.
Or if Sandy is willing to package trade Wheeler or Syndergaard the $6m Castro is available and he is easier to fit into the budget. Quite frankly that would be the trade I would investigate first.
I don’t think the payroll has to stay dead even, and I’d be willing to offer a bet that the Mets increase their payroll, perhaps fairly substantially, this off season.
You can’t be “aggressive” in the offseason, going for both a trade and a free agent, and hope to maintain expenses. And woe to the source that would have let Olney print that nugget.
I don’t understand why everyone is trying to put Flores back on the bench when he shows so much promise in order to get a player who is 33, will cost prospects and is not the long term solution at the position.
You want to replace Flores before he even shows what he can do in a full year? at a certain point the Mets have to either commit to Flores or trade him.
I still say the best way to go about it is:
1. Trade Murphy for prospects or in a package for either a shortstop or RF/LF.
If the Mets get a shortstop, Flores moves to 2B.
2. Do not ignore what Reynolds is doing because he could very well be the best option with Flores moving to 2B.
3. If Reynolds plays shortstop and Flores 2B, just find a LF/RF with the combination of Gee/Colon/Montero/Murphy/Niese. That should be enough.
First off, I’m a Flores guy.
Second, he *might* have an exceptional bat but he will never, ever be the “long term” solution at SS. That name goes to players that excel defensively at a position where the glove goes first. Our long term solution at SS plays in Brooklyn right now.
Ramirez would be valuable to this team – especially with defensively handicapped Murphy or Flores at 2B – even if he couldn’t pick up a bat. Of course, those two Silver Slugger Awards might have something to say about that.
Since 2009, he is arguably one of the five best defensive SSs in all of baseball. He is the most dependable, and that is not arguable. Based on WAR, he is the 3rd best, behind Tulo and HanRam.
And you get him for two years, and only $20MM. And given the fact that the Royals went to the World Series mostly because their starters actually played, I think it’s incredibly important to note that ARam plays 150+ games a year. That means no games from the likes of Omar Q.
From a strategic POV, from a fiscal POV, from a batting strength v LHP POV, I think Ramirez makes a helluva lot of sense.
Regardless of what players the Mets trade for, they must trade Murphy. The Mets have too many 2B options and have to trade from strength.
Trading Murphy is step1.
Step 2 is finding out what Niese/Colon/Gee/Montero and possibly Pawlecki would bring back in a trade. Not all mind you.
After that, the fans here must read between the lines and Sandy the Squirrel has already drop hints as to how payroll will not substantially increase. So to me that means no Gordon and possibly no Ramirez unless they are also trading Murphy and Colon at the very least.
Editor’s Note – Please do not capitalize words in your post, as that is a violation of our Comment Policy.
Grote….100% correct
JG, I would’ve agreed with you before this year, except I am starting to see that there is real value in Murphy. He’s a competent hitter, and a slightly less than average fielder but improving every year. This year he had a better defensive rating per fangraphs than Neil Walker and the past two years better than Aaron Hill and both these guys are looked at as experienced second sackers
Because he can’t field.
Alexei Ramirez for Colon + Montero + (some prospect in the low minors)
You want one of our prospect pitchers? Gotta take Colon and his contract off our hands.
Not sure if people realize how durable Ramirez is. 158 games for 4 straight years, and 156 before that. He is very very durable and we can pretty much roll with Flores as a backup without worrying about him having to play there. Above average defender, and his bat won’t kill you. Out of his 7 season here, he has had only 1 really bad offensive year, which was 2012. Most of the time, he’ll almost be an average hitter.
That too, is a good trade.
Shrewd move.
I’d take that bet! Just like there was payroll flexibility this year right? So when Ike got traded that brought the Mets payroll “down” to 80 million dollars! yes JG there is financial flexibility this off season. So what happened to the 50 million dollars from the new television contracts? Did the Wilpons re-invest it in the team?
Trades possibilities-1-Toronto need a second base and starting pitchers (SP) Trade murphy, niese and nieuwenheus or den dekker for bautista or Reyes with 5million annually (3yrs) from Toronto if it’s Reyes; maybe add plaweki in any of those two trades. 2-Boston don’t like Cespedes and needs SP, trade Colon for Cespedes and some low level rookie from us. 3-Ramirez (ss) and prospect for Gee,Tejada, and Montero. If you trade or sign a power left field try a ss with speed or viceversa. We don’t have a real first batter and a good 5th batter to protect Duda. Please don’t trade E. Young, speed is hard to obtain.
Completely agree with your points.
Ramirez is a durable option, and I think he could be had at the right price. If we want a player like Starlin Castro, the price is going to be through the roof, and a package for Ramirez probably wouldn’t be too bad.
I can’t believe I haven’t given much thought to the possible acquisition of Ramirez. It’s too easy getting caught up in the stars, meanwhile Ramirez would be a a tremendous improvement for the Mets.
I think the White Sox are more desperate for starting pitching than the Mets are for a SS. I think the Mets could wait them out if only the Yankees and Dodgers are their competition.
I like that Ramirez has the option year too on his contract.
Alexei is a pretty good shortstop, but don’t forget that he is on the wrong side of 30, and he is no superstar. With the Cuddyer signing now in tact, the Mets may actually be able to expand further into the market and sign/trade for a better quality shortstop. The Mets now have a winning attitude to their team’s name, so Ramirez should be more of a Plan B type shortstop.