Spring training is upon us, and barring any last minute additions, the Mets 26 player roster is starting to take shape. Once again, we approach the upcoming season with high hopes and low expectations. No one would have predicted a 101 win season back in 2022 but the Mets got there on the backs of their strong starting pitching that included a retread from Cleveland who started 29 games, a collection of free agents who started 30, 29, and 23 games, an often injured star who managed just 11 starts, and a collection of not ready for prime time players who collectively filled out the end of the rotation. They also had the preeminent closer who appeared in 61 games and finished with a 1.31 ERA to go with 32 saves. The hitters played to the 4th best OPS and led the league in hits, team batting average and getting hit by pitches. Ron Hunt would have been proud of that stat. They also managed to finish first in strikeouts, not such a great claim to fame.
2023 was a completely different story as the pitching fell apart early, and the 7-8-9-10 starters pressed into action didn’t show much until the last few months of the season. Several hitters played below their career averages and only an end of the season surge moved some of their statistics to a respectable level. Had the hitters not gone on vacation in the month of June, the Mets might have edged out the Florida Marlins for the last wildcard spot.
Every year I look for the Mets to get off to a strong start in spring training and hope that it conveys to a good regular season, even accepting that spring training games are meaningless since teams are experimenting with various fringe players trying to make the team. A prime example of one having nothing to do with the other would be the 2022 team that finished the grapefruit league with a 10-14 record but then went on to win 101 games in the regular season.
For comparative purposes, we will look at the 26-year period 1998-2023 and compare the spring training and regular season records for the Mets, Atlanta Braves, Philadelphia Phillies and Los Angeles Dodgers. The starting year was chosen based on my supposition that the Mets would have had some good spring training records heading into what turned out to be back to back playoff appearances in 1999 and 2000.
During these 26 years, the four teams finished spring training as follows:
Mets: 10 spring winning records; 13 losing records; three finishes at .500.
Braves: 12 winning records; 12 losing records; two finishes at .500.
Phillies: nine winning records; 16 losing records; one finish at .500.
Dodgers: 11 spring winning records; 13 losing records; two finishes at .500.
The following charts show the comparison between what these four teams did in spring training versus the regular season.
Mets | Spring | Spring | Win | Reg | Reg | Win | Season |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Year | Wins | Losses | % | Wins | Loses | % | Finish |
2023 | 10 | 14 | 0.417 | 75 | 87 | 0.463 | 4 |
2022 | 7 | 7 | 0.500 | 101 | 61 | 0.623 | 1 |
2021 | 11 | 11 | 0.500 | 77 | 85 | 0.475 | 3 |
2020 | 8 | 11 | 0.421 | 26 | 34 | 0.433 | 4 |
2019 | 13 | 16 | 0.448 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 3 |
2018 | 10 | 18 | 0.357 | 77 | 85 | 0.475 | 4 |
2017 | 15 | 17 | 0.469 | 70 | 92 | 0.432 | 4 |
2016 | 8 | 17 | 0.320 | 87 | 75 | 0.537 | 2 |
2015 | 19 | 12 | 0.613 | 90 | 72 | 0.556 | 1 |
2014 | 14 | 16 | 0.467 | 79 | 83 | 0.488 | 2 |
2013 | 15 | 15 | 0.500 | 74 | 88 | 0.457 | 3 |
2012 | 9 | 20 | 0.310 | 74 | 88 | 0.457 | 4 |
2011 | 17 | 15 | 0.531 | 77 | 85 | 0.475 | 4 |
2010 | 14 | 16 | 0.467 | 79 | 83 | 0.488 | 4 |
2009 | 18 | 15 | 0.545 | 70 | 92 | 0.432 | 4 |
2008 | 20 | 11 | 0.645 | 89 | 73 | 0.549 | 2 |
2007 | 12 | 21 | 0.364 | 88 | 74 | 0.543 | 2 |
2006 | 16 | 14 | 0.533 | 97 | 65 | 0.599 | 1 |
2005 | 17 | 11 | 0.607 | 83 | 79 | 0.512 | 4 |
2004 | 13 | 20 | 0.394 | 71 | 91 | 0.438 | 4 |
2003 | 16 | 14 | 0.533 | 66 | 95 | 0.410 | 5 |
2002 | 12 | 19 | 0.387 | 75 | 86 | 0.466 | 5 |
2001 | 18 | 10 | 0.643 | 82 | 80 | 0.506 | 3 |
2000 | 14 | 12 | 0.538 | 94 | 68 | 0.580 | 1 |
1999 | 15 | 16 | 0.484 | 97 | 66 | 0.595 | 2 |
1998 | 19 | 11 | 0.633 | 88 | 74 | 0.543 | 2 |
Totals | 360 | 379 | 0.487 | 2072 | 2037 | 0.504 |
The Mets regular season record was only marginally better than their spring record and a number of years with poor spring trainings did not hinder their ability to do well once the season started. They managed to win 100 or more games only once.
Braves | Spring | Spring | Win | Reg | Reg | Win | Season |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Year | Wins | Losses | % | Wins | Loses | % | Finish |
2023 | 18 | 10 | 0.643 | 104 | 58 | 0.642 | 1 |
2022 | 8 | 7 | 0.533 | 101 | 61 | 0.623 | 1 |
2021 | 15 | 13 | 0.536 | 88 | 73 | 0.547 | 1 |
2020 | 9 | 12 | 0.429 | 35 | 25 | 0.583 | 1 |
2019 | 16 | 16 | 0.500 | 97 | 65 | 0.599 | 1 |
2018 | 13 | 18 | 0.419 | 90 | 72 | 0.556 | 1 |
2017 | 9 | 22 | 0.290 | 72 | 90 | 0.444 | 3 |
2016 | 6 | 20 | 0.231 | 68 | 93 | 0.422 | 5 |
2015 | 15 | 17 | 0.469 | 67 | 95 | 0.414 | 4 |
2014 | 18 | 10 | 0.643 | 79 | 83 | 0.488 | 2 |
2013 | 20 | 15 | 0.571 | 96 | 66 | 0.593 | 1 |
2012 | 10 | 18 | 0.357 | 94 | 68 | 0.580 | 2 |
2011 | 17 | 13 | 0.567 | 89 | 73 | 0.549 | 2 |
2010 | 17 | 12 | 0.586 | 91 | 71 | 0.562 | 2 |
2009 | 21 | 12 | 0.636 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 3 |
2008 | 15 | 15 | 0.500 | 72 | 90 | 0.444 | 4 |
2007 | 18 | 12 | 0.600 | 84 | 78 | 0.519 | 3 |
2006 | 11 | 18 | 0.379 | 79 | 83 | 0.488 | 3 |
2005 | 12 | 15 | 0.444 | 90 | 72 | 0.556 | 1 |
2004 | 14 | 17 | 0.452 | 96 | 66 | 0.593 | 1 |
2003 | 17 | 12 | 0.586 | 101 | 61 | 0.623 | 1 |
2002 | 15 | 14 | 0.517 | 101 | 59 | 0.631 | 1 |
2001 | 12 | 13 | 0.480 | 88 | 74 | 0.543 | 1 |
2000 | 14 | 17 | 0.452 | 95 | 67 | 0.586 | 1 |
1999 | 17 | 13 | 0.567 | 103 | 59 | 0.636 | 1 |
1998 | 13 | 17 | 0.433 | 106 | 56 | 0.654 | 1 |
Totals | 370 | 378 | 0.495 | 2272 | 1834 | 0.553 |
While the Braves spring records were not far off from what the Mets accomplished, their regular seasons were much more successful. The also managed to win 100 or more games six times.
Philies | Spring | Spring | Win | Reg | Reg | Win | Season |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Year | Wins | Losses | % | Wins | Loses | % | Finish |
2023 | 16 | 15 | 0.516 | 90 | 72 | 0.556 | 2 |
2022 | 10 | 7 | 0.588 | 87 | 75 | 0.537 | 3 |
2021 | 12 | 15 | 0.444 | 82 | 80 | 0.506 | 2 |
2020 | 15 | 6 | 0.714 | 28 | 32 | 0.467 | 3 |
2019 | 14 | 14 | 0.500 | 81 | 81 | 0.500 | 4 |
2018 | 13 | 17 | 0.433 | 80 | 82 | 0.494 | 3 |
2017 | 14 | 17 | 0.452 | 66 | 96 | 0.407 | 5 |
2016 | 15 | 11 | 0.577 | 71 | 91 | 0.438 | 4 |
2015 | 14 | 17 | 0.452 | 63 | 99 | 0.389 | 5 |
2014 | 9 | 18 | 0.333 | 73 | 89 | 0.451 | 5 |
2013 | 16 | 17 | 0.485 | 43 | 89 | 0.326 | 4 |
2012 | 14 | 16 | 0.467 | 81 | 81 | 0.500 | 3 |
2011 | 21 | 14 | 0.600 | 102 | 60 | 0.630 | 1 |
2010 | 15 | 12 | 0.556 | 97 | 65 | 0.599 | 1 |
2009 | 13 | 19 | 0.406 | 93 | 69 | 0.574 | 1 |
2008 | 12 | 18 | 0.400 | 92 | 70 | 0.568 | 1 |
2007 | 19 | 11 | 0.633 | 89 | 73 | 0.549 | 2 |
2006 | 19 | 11 | 0.633 | 85 | 77 | 0.525 | 2 |
2005 | 11 | 18 | 0.379 | 88 | 74 | 0.543 | 2 |
2004 | 10 | 21 | 0.323 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 2 |
2003 | 10 | 17 | 0.370 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 3 |
2002 | 12 | 14 | 0.462 | 80 | 81 | 0.497 | 3 |
2001 | 12 | 14 | 0.462 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 2 |
2000 | 15 | 18 | 0.455 | 65 | 97 | 0.401 | 5 |
1999 | 14 | 15 | 0.483 | 77 | 85 | 0.475 | 3 |
1998 | 16 | 14 | 0.533 | 75 | 87 | 0.463 | 3 |
Totals | 361 | 386 | 0.483 | 2046 | 2033 | 0.502 |
The Phillies had a slightly poorer overall spring training record than the Mets. During the regular season their mediocrity jumped out as the only won 13 more games than they lost over those 26 years. They also recorded 100 or more wins only once.
Dodgers | Spring | Spring | Win | Reg | Reg | Win | Season |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Year | Wins | Losses | % | Wins | Loses | % | Finish |
2023 | 14 | 13 | 0.519 | 100 | 62 | 0.617 | 1 |
2022 | 5 | 9 | 0.357 | 111 | 51 | 0.685 | 1 |
2021 | 13 | 11 | 0.542 | 106 | 56 | 0.654 | 1 Tie |
2020 | 13 | 7 | 0.650 | 43 | 17 | 0.717 | 1 |
2019 | 14 | 15 | 0.483 | 106 | 56 | 0.654 | 1 |
2018 | 17 | 15 | 0.531 | 92 | 71 | 0.564 | 1 |
2017 | 18 | 17 | 0.514 | 104 | 58 | 0.642 | 1 |
2016 | 13 | 17 | 0.433 | 91 | 71 | 0.562 | 1 |
2015 | 16 | 11 | 0.593 | 92 | 70 | 0.568 | 1 |
2014 | 6 | 10 | 0.375 | 94 | 68 | 0.580 | 1 |
2013 | 13 | 20 | 0.394 | 92 | 70 | 0.568 | 1 |
2012 | 15 | 15 | 0.500 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 2 |
2011 | 14 | 21 | 0.400 | 82 | 79 | 0.509 | 3 |
2010 | 11 | 17 | 0.393 | 80 | 82 | 0.494 | 4 |
2009 | 15 | 22 | 0.405 | 95 | 67 | 0.586 | 1 |
2008 | 11 | 18 | 0.379 | 84 | 78 | 0.519 | 1 |
2007 | 17 | 16 | 0.515 | 82 | 80 | 0.506 | 4 |
2006 | 15 | 13 | 0.536 | 88 | 74 | 0.543 | 1 |
2005 | 13 | 15 | 0.464 | 71 | 91 | 0.438 | 4 |
2004 | 12 | 22 | 0.353 | 93 | 69 | 0.574 | 1 |
2003 | 15 | 15 | 0.500 | 85 | 77 | 0.525 | 2 |
2002 | 12 | 17 | 0.414 | 92 | 70 | 0.568 | 3 |
2001 | 18 | 13 | 0.581 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 3 |
2000 | 12 | 18 | 0.400 | 86 | 76 | 0.531 | 2 |
1999 | 21 | 9 | 0.700 | 95 | 67 | 0.586 | 1 |
1998 | 18 | 10 | 0.643 | 83 | 79 | 0.512 | 3 |
Totals | 361 | 386 | 0.483 | 2319 | 1791 | 0.564 |
Like the Mets, Braves and Phillies, the Dodgers ended up with a sub .500 record over the 26 spring trainings. However, their regular season won-loss record very much echoed the perennial division champion Braves, and they did manage to win 100 or more game five times
The results reinforced my research that what happens in spring training has little bearing on the regular season. The Braves and Dodgers found a way to make the most of their situation when the regular season bell rang, and the Mets and Phillies, for the most part, did not.
The next chart shows the comparison between spring training and regular season records and then where each of the teams finished in the standings.
Spring | Winning | Losing | 0.500 | Regular | Winning | Losing | 0.500 | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Training | Records | Records | Records | Season | Records | Records | Records | Place | Place | Place | Place | Place | |
Mets | 10 | 13 | 3 | Mets | 12 | 14 | 0 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 10 | 2 | |
Braves | 12 | 12 | 2 | Braves | 20 | 6 | 0 | 15 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 1 | |
Phillies | 9 | 16 | 1 | Phillies | 13 | 11 | 2 | 4 | 7 | 8 | 3 | 4 | |
Dodgers | 11 | 13 | 2 | Dodgers | 24 | 3 | 0 | 16 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 0 |
While the Mets and Phillies each managed four first place finishes, the Braves and Dodgers finished first 15 and 16 times respectively.
Next came the search of the Internet to get a smarter perspective on the correlation between spring training and regular season records. What I learned from countless articles is that the spring training record has essentially no correlation to how the team will do in the regular season. While all teams tinker with their rosters in the spring, the really good teams (Braves, Dodgers and there are others) appear to be working on ways to improve their already strong and competitive teams, while the teams on the fringe (Mets, Phillies and there are others), are lucky just to field a competitive team when the season starts.
And one more tidbit of info to consider. During the 26 years span the Mets played in two world series (2000 and 2015), losing both. The Braves played in two world series (1999 and 2021) and split the pair. The Phillies played in three world series (2008, 2009 and 2022) winning one, and the Dodgers played in three world series (2017, 2018 and 2020) winning one. When all was said and done, the Mets were only one world series win behind these other teams.
Steve Cohen talks about the Mets organization being more like the Dodgers and I for one will be happy to tinker in the spring but them have regular season results like they do. There is much work to be done.
I seem to recall that several years ago Name had a post that the overall ST records weren’t all that important except for one thing – you don’t want to have the worst record. But I can’t find that post of his.
Here are the teams with the worst records in ST and what they did in the regular season:
2023
Grapefruit League – Marlins (84-87)
Cactus League – A’s (50-112)
2022
Grapefruit – Nationals (55-107)
Cactus – A’s (60-102)
2021
Grapefruit – Astros (95-67)
Cactus – Reds (83-79)
My view on these things is if they’re keeping score, I want my team to win. But I recognize that it’s much more important that players get enough reps and they come thru it healthy.
I dont hold any value whatsoever to ST record. Any correlation is coincidental, not causal.
You cant play games where significant innings are played by guys with numbers in the 80s and expect it to have any meaning whatsoever. Even worse two different guys with the same number in 80s no one has ever heard of!
Pitchers need to go through their 30 fast balls, 30 sliders, thirty change ups etc for an outing. Catchers need to get working on building relationships. Hitters get their swings in, tinker with stances. I just cant see that as meaning anything com March 28th.
As far as Im concerned, a team fully wins ST if they pack for home woth no injuries. Its all I care about.
OK, found the thing that I remembered. This is a part of what Name said:
“But for the extreme low end, we do see some correlation, which matches the data you provided on worst teams. In that graph, no team that had under a 30% ST win% finished above .500 in the regular season.
But if you look at the 30-35% win range, i see about a 50/50 split again.
So i see 2 takeaways from this exercise. Don’t finish dead last. Also, finish with better than a 30% Spring Training win%”
We are all in agreement and I agree that if I am following my team play games I want them to win. And if you get out of spring with little to know injuries you are ahead of the game. Interesting that deGrom, Scherzer and now Verlander will not be ready to go. Anyone upset none of them are here?
Yes, but just one