Thursday afternoon the Mets are losing in the ninth inning, 7-2. There are two outs and nobody is on and a lefty comes to the plate. It’s not Joey Votto or Ryan Howard – it’s Denard Span. I mean no disrespect towards Span, who has accumulated 17.7 fWAR in parts of six seasons in the majors. He’s a fine player. I just mean – c’mon it’s not the second coming of Babe Ruth strolling to the plate. But manager Terry Collins acts as if it is and he calls for a lefty reliever.
The Mets have scored five runs in their last four games combined. The odds they were going to do so in the ninth inning yesterday – and let’s be charitable here – were virtually non-existent. Yet our manager felt the need to inject himself into the game to make it appear like he was doing something positive. At best, this was an empty and hollow gesture. At worst, this was example number 10,000 of a guy who gets praised to great lengths who does nothing to push the team forward.
Year three of the Collins Administration is drawing to a close and there are reports throughout all media forms that the same crew will be back again in 2014. One of the definitions of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and anticipating different results. So, get ready for mindless chasing of the platoon advantage, guys with sub-.300 OBP batting at the top of the order, guys batting cleanup because they look big – and losses, lots and lots of losses.
We all have strengths and weaknesses as individuals. One of the mistakes made in sports is thinking of managers or coaches as “good” or “bad” and applying that handle to the manager in all circumstances. When Collins was hired, the Mets had just fired a manager who had presided over a collapse and one who didn’t do a particularly good job handling things.
Collins brought professionalism and dignity back to the manager’s office. Maybe that doesn’t sound like much now but it was a welcome change from the previous administration, which saw shirtless people challenging others to fight and the manager labeling himself as a “Gangsta,” to name just two examples of the craziness that passed for normal in the pre-Collins days.
Those types of things are no longer issues for the Mets and we have Collins to thank for that step forward. The question is: How should we properly reward him for succeeding in that area? Professionalism is a great thing but it doesn’t put people in the seats. Only one thing does that and it’s winning more games than you lose, something Collins has yet to do in three seasons.
Immediately, everyone defends Collins in this regard, saying that no one could win with the players he had at his disposal. Fair enough so let’s flip the question on its head. Would everyone have as many losses as the 254 and counting that Collins has? If given three years at the helm, would other managers have as many question marks and as few solutions as Collins has delivered? What has he done to make things better, once he established that he was not a clown in the dugout or in front of a microphone?
Why should he be given – and the fans subjected to – a fourth season?
It’s wonderful that the players and the media love him. Given a choice, that’s what we would pick 100 times out of a 100. But the Mets are an $800 million dollar enterprise and you should not pick someone to lead the day-to-day operations of the club because he’s got a nice personality. But essentially, that’s the only reason that Collins is likely to be back.
The Mets have an in-house solution ready to take over for Collins in Wally Backman. For the record, I like Backman but I have no rooting interest in him taking over – just simply using him as an example. Backman went 81-63 this year and has been praised by the front office for his work with younger players. Ike Davis was sent to Backman and came back a much better player, so it’s not unreasonable to think he could work with veterans, too.
But Backman has zero chance to be the manager because his personality has never been described as “nice.” He’s likely to leave the organization this winter and go somewhere that values winning over showing up and smiling pretty for the camera.
No one wants the brash, arrogant Backman who made a ton of mistakes at the beginning of his managerial career which led to his losing his MLB job before he even managed a game. No one wants the one who was a hot head in the Independent Leagues. But the one who has been humbled, the one who went to rookie ball and worked his way back up to Triple-A, earning praise every step of the way – seems like that guy might have something to offer.
We’ve seen what Collins has to offer and the answer is – not much.
He was given a fiery personality in Jordany Valdespin and he couldn’t handle him. He was given a hard-headed player in Davis and he couldn’t get through to him, unless you consider Davis’ output the past two seasons good for a cleanup hitter. He was given a quiet personality in Lucas Duda and all he’s done is jerk him around and failed to develop him in any meaningful way.
Who does he relate to and develop and push forward? Should he really get credit when low-maintenance veterans like Marlon Byrd and David Wright sing his praises? How’s he done turning Ruben Tejada into a useful player?
Matt Harvey likely being out for the year in 2014 is a huge setback for the organization. Sandy Alderson shouldn’t make things worse by bringing back Collins and the majority of his staff, too. If Alderson thinks Backman is too much of a loose cannon – by all means go in another direction. But find someone who can develop a youngster or someone who can see what a player has to offer instead and who puts them in a position to succeed or someone who recognizes when guys are terrible and removes them from the lineup.
Or find someone who can bring some creativity to the manager’s chair, instead of one who just puts in a lefty reliever each and every time a lefty bats in the last few innings. Better yet – find someone who can do all of those things. Hey, I hear Davey Johnson might be looking for something to do next season. Maybe Tim Teufel would make a great MLB manager. Larry Dierker deserves another shot. The point is there’s a bunch of people out there who bring something to the table besides professionalism.
Collins was the right guy for the job in 2011 and since he had a two-year contract there was no harm in letting him manage in 2012, too. But there was no reason for him to still be around in 2013 and it will be an even bigger mistake if he’s still at the helm next year.
Fans look at the expiring payroll and envision a big free agent signing in the offseason. Alderson seems unlikely to hand out a $100 million contract to another team’s star on the wrong side of 30. But he can still make a big splash in the offseason without putting the Wilpons another nine figures in debt.
He can hire the manager who will take the club from “professional” to “winning.” Let’s all thank Collins for bringing the Mets from “laughing stock” to “professional.” But let’s not think he’s the right guy to take the club to the next level. Because nothing he’s done in the last three years has given any indication he’s the right guy for that job.
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AMEN.
BTW ,a shorter version of this column is…Fire Terry Collins!
Personally, I don’t believe most other managers would have done any better with the roster the Mets had. I’m not going to go over the top praising a guy for winning mid-70s games, but that is better than what many people expected the team to be.
I don’t much care whether or not TC is brought back, I think the manager impact is largely overrated, but I don’t think you presented any compelling evidence as to why any of those other guys would be better candidates. And using Ike’s slumps, Tejada and JV (who has had problems everywhere he has been and was never particularly good) are pretty silly things to hold as a strike against him. And yes I do think the opinions of Wright, Byrd, (and Beltran too who also sung the praises of TC), well respected veterans who have been around a bunch of MLB managers are more meaningful than how a guy like Valdespin turns out.
I’d be fine with the replacing TC because I don’t think he is some amazing manager whereby without him they’d be way worse. But I don’t think they’d be better without him. And them hyping up a managerial change instead of player acquisitions as the “big splash” of the offseason is about the worst thing that could possibly happen. That is part of the reason I hate the talk of managers so much…replacing the manager and making that as the “big move” is another way of the team attempting to get a pass from making actual meaningful moves for another year.
I’m not sure how I could present compelling evidence how other people could do a better job when you state in the very first sentence what you believe to be true.
Three straight losing seasons, not one position player has made a step forward, at least two (Davis and Tejada) have regressed significantly, 10 pitchers on the DL this year alone, a bullpen with a worse ERA than the starters for the third straight years, a team that appears listless despite being filled with rookies and young players who should be hungry for a chance to make their mark in the majors.
The goal posts are always changing. We can’t judge him by his record because he doesn’t have the talent. We’re told we need to judge him by how the team is playing. According to MetsBlog, “Since the Byrd and Buck trade, the team just has nothing working offensively and it’s clearly beginning to weigh on the young players, as they are becoming increasingly aggressive and showing visible frustration with every at-bat. At this point in the season, it’s hard to see anything changing…” Now it appears we can’t judge him on that, either.
Just be honest and consistent. If there’s no way TC is going to lose his job because he carries out orders from Alderson without complaining – just tell us that.
If he’s got goals and standards that he has to meet – let us know what they are and don’t change them once it becomes apparent than neither he nor the team are going to meet the consistently lowered expectations.
At this point, replacing TC is a meaningful move. It means they’re not going to tolerate crappy performance because it comes from a nice guy. It means we don’t have to continue to witness the deification of any reliever who throws with his left hand no matter how terrible he is. It means we don’t write in unproductive guys in the lineup day after day after day hoping they will magically improve. It means we don’t have a manager who complains to the press about a guy who shows up on time to Spring Training but keeps his mouth shut a year later when the guy comes in early but unprepared to play at an MLB level.
The way Collins handled Tejada the past two years is an excellent example of why he’s such a poor manager. He goes on and on and on about things that are superficial and have no bearing on success but when a real problem arises, he has no idea on what to do to solve it.
Do you think Davey Johnson or Whitey Herzog or Tony LaRussa or Buck Showalter or any manager who was worth anything would have been quiet about Tejada’s lack of effort and just continued to write his name in the lineup day after day like Collins did in 2013 until he got hurt?
I just don’t see anything he brings to the table right now that merits him coming back next year. Lets his contract expire, thank him for his service and move on.
I’m not sure who you are referring to in terms of the goal posts changing and who it is that is telling us how to judge things. Metsblog? I agree people shouldn’t be just going by whatever Metsblog tells them in terms of how to evaluate things. People should form their own opinions. Just like I am doing here and disagreeing with your ideas on how to evaluate managers.
Are you referring to the team themselves?? I think they have much bigger things to worry about then telling fans all the exact details about how they plan to evaluate a manager. Fans don’t need to be involved in everything. Though Sandy did pretty much say from the beginning that TC wasn’t going to be judged based on some specified win/loss criteria. And really it is perfectly reasonable for things to change in terms of expectations once injuries and trades happen. Justin Turner isn’t as David Wright, Dice-K isn’t a good replacement for Matt Harvey.
The crappy performance is from a crappy team. The Mets had to know the team they were putting together wasn’t particularly good. Blaming TC for that and not addressing the REAL issue – the lack of talent on the team – would just be passing the buck and a typical Wilpon way of doing things.
And when the are tons of players on the team who aren’t good – you are going to be writing in the names of unproductive players into the lineup everyday regardless. It’s kinda funny that you seem to be complaining about him sticking to the same lineup everyday, while others want him fired for changing the lineup too much.
Wright, Betran, Reyes, and Byrd all bounced back under TC as a manager. Our starting pitching had been pretty good most of the ear. If Terry is the reason Ike and Tejada are bad now does that also mean he was the reason they were “good” a couple years ago and had some level of productivity to “regress” from? Or is the manager only to involved when things go bad? And it was known the Mets weren’t happy with how Tejada showed up to ST this year. But they still started the year without a legit backup SS on the roster….so Tejada was going to play. They gave him a shot to prove himself despite coming to camp “out of shape” but his performance stunk, which is why they were planning on sending him down before he got hurt. If your issue was with Tejada playing, I think your problem is more with the GM for putting him on the roster.
And again, as I said if they decide to replace TC fine. It’s not like he is some irreplaceable genius. But if that is painted as the big splash and is used as a way to circumvent addressing the real problem – the lack of talent on the roster – it will be a joke and the same old same old nonsense from this ownership group.
“Wright, Betran, Reyes, and Byrd all bounced back under TC as a manager.”
I don’t believe that’s accurate. Wright, Beltran and Reyes became healthy again under Collins. If you want to credit him for keeping them healthy, I could get behind that idea, as long as we apply that consistently and dock him for 10 pitchers winding up on the DL. And Reyes and Wright also both got hurt under Collins. Byrd bounced back and Collins should get some credit for believing in him.
“If Terry is the reason Ike and Tejada are bad now does that also mean he was the reason they were “good” a couple years ago…”
I don’t think Terry gets any credit for whatever periods Ike was good. Davis debuted before Collins came aboard and when he took over, Davis was already established. As for Tejada, he gets some credit for Ruben’s play in 2011 but I don’t see any way that Collins helped in in 2012 and no way whatsoever he helped him in 2013.
A lot comes down to who has the final say on things. Many people think TC is nothing more than a puppet doing the bidding of Sandy Alderson with little to no input on decisions. I’m not a member of that camp, although I do not dismiss the idea, either.
Collins has never been shy about voicing his opinion about having two lefty relievers in the bullpen. How come he can’t voice his opinion about having a backup SS on the roster? Why can’t he speak up and say that Duda’s outfield defense is killing the team? Why can’t he articulate how Davis swinging at breaking balls a foot out of the strike zone is making him sub-replacement level? I mean, the one time when TC was vocal about wanting something, he chose a lefty reliever who might throw 50 innings in a year. That seems terribly misguided.
I understand that you are not leading the Collins bandwagon. I also understand your fear about a managerial move being trumpeted as the key offseason acquisition. My solution would be to fire Collins now so that it couldn’t be counted as an offseason move.
Comment: Many people think TC is nothing more than a puppet doing the bidding of Sandy Alderson with little to no input on decisions. I’m not a member of that camp, although I do not dismiss the idea, either.
Reply: “The fact the Wilpon family, which controls the Mets, has a deep appreciation for Collins is known throughout the industry,” Puma wrote. “The Wilpons and general manager Sandy Alderson value Collins as a loyal lieutenant who has put his ego aside and walked the organizational line without creating waves.” (from Mike Puma)
I wasn’t talking about health with those guys…just productivity. I don’t give Collins credit for keeping them healthy. I don’t think the manager has much to do with that…the mets have had a ton of injuries in recent yrs regardless of the manager (Though maybe TC gets some blame for Wright’s injury this yr- but that’s a different issue.) I was just talking about them being good. Reyes had the best yr of his career under TC, Wright bounced back to his great levels after some down time (2011 was his bad yr due to injury, but the prior 2 years did not seem to be injury related), and Beltran had one of his best years. Personally I don’t really think TC was “the reason” those guys were good (though Beltran in particular talked about TC helping him quite a bit), but if we are going to criticize him for failures then he deserves praise for some who have played well. Harvey and others have also done better than expected – so it’s not all negative.
Ike wasn’t really that established – he had a decent not great rookie year. Even now, I think it’s a stretch to consider him “established”. He’s had a very up and down career.
And how do we really know what TC speaks out about and what he doesn’t? Not everything that is discussed gets aired out in the press. He may express his opinion on some things, but that doesn’t always mean he gets what he wants. He probably like all of us would love to have about 3 more great bats in the lineup, but he probably won’t get that.
And really with the Tejada situation I don’t think there was a “good answer”. A lot of people think the Tejada situation was handled wrongly and that Tejada never should have been sent down at all. I am not one of those people, I think the treatment was deserved. But I don’t think I would have started the season any differently than the Mets did (considering the roster that they had in place). Omar Q is not a good player so I don’t think he would have solved the “problem” that is the Mets SS spot…they didn’t have any “good” options for SS. Nor would I have liked the idea of having both Q and Tejada on the roster at the same time. That would essentially be wasting a roster spot – neither guy is particularly versatile and neither guy would be one you’d want up to PH – so it’d be a waste to have them both on the roster as some attempt to be able to more easily “punish” Tejada by benching him. Ideally they would’ve had a better SS to come take Ruben’s job sooner, but they didn’t…so considering the circumstances I thought they handled that situation fine – they were pissed at him, but gave him a shot to prove he could play – he failed so they went with Q for awhile.
Reyes had an .841 OPS at age 23 — it’s not a big surprise he had an .877 OPS at age 28. Wright’s struggles in 2009 and 2010 are directly the result of the move to Citi Field and his resurgence could be credited to the fences being moved in. Beltran certainly had a great year in 2011.
Agreed about Ike being up and down – not sure how to give Collins any credit for that.
Absolutely, there’s a difference in speaking out in private with Alderson and speaking out to the media. We can only judge on the latter. So, we either have to conclude that Alderson gave the okay for TC to speak out on the lefty relievers (and not the other topics) or that’s what TC thinks is the most important. Neither one is a ringing endorsement.
The good answer was to have a backup SS on the roster so the team had options. I’ve said before that given their platoon splits – mostly Tejada being good against LHP and less so Quintanilla being a bit better than RT against RHP – that it would have made a good platoon. By refusing to carry a backup SS, the Mets have essentially created two problems this year. No reasonable alternative except to play Tejada when he was displaying a poor attitude and alsor stinking up the joint and then no rest for Quintanilla when he definitely needed days off.
Brian, i think you could have ended this discussion with two words: The Bullpen.
Brian, Id like to thank you for writing this article, which is on the minds of many here, who watch the Mets daily and try to digest the un-digestible.
That the hurdle seems to be that our team “plays hard” simply cannot cut at any level. These are professionals who should be “playing hard” entirely on their own accord…it presents little in the way of managing. Along this line, I think it is relevant to use Collins in his own words after the Nats series:
“You’d think some of these guys would grab the opportunity that’s in front of them because of the injury issues on our club to say, ‘Here’s my chance to show I’m a major league player,'” Collins said after Thursday’s 7-2 loss. “And we’re not seeing it. We’re not seeing it at this moment, I can tell you.”
That tells me he DOES NOT have the team playing hard. No player can be just read the riot act for not getting a hit, so this would seem to be more than that. In fact it looks like these kids, many who are recent call ups, needs genuine coaching to develop the skills he seems to desire they have. Can MdD with all of 35 MLB PAs be expected to know the ropes on how to handle a wily 10 year vet on the mound? If he’s yelling, then he needs to look in the mirror. I still see fundie mistakes all the time. And if we dont see a full sitting down of FF after his clear and preposterous plunking of Werth for fun, we will know he has no control at all. I would have pulled FF after that pitch and yelled at him on TV. That action ultimately hung Tejada to dry with Werth sliding into second…he could have easily broken his ankle, or much worse, ended his career with a full blown ACL/MCL knee injury.
Unfortunately Brian, as the list of Teflon Terry (registered trademark, Metsense) “un-accomplishments” mount, the clear story is that these are all frosting on the basic self evident cake — Collins is the field parrot for Alderson. He does as requested with all commands. In Collins, Alderson has a real “yes man”. And specifically because you requested: TC will not lose his job because he carries out orders from Alderson without complaining.
We need to get used to it. And to losing. By my count, there wont be enough of the plan in place to fied a .500 team until ’15, and we wont be competitive until at least ’16. Fasten the chin straps folks, its still gonna be rough in Mets-land for some time to come.
Man I don’t understand how people can say the manager doesn’t have a lot to do with winning
and are overrated? He makes out the lineups and he’s the one who decides how long starting pitchers go and which pitchers and how there used out of the bull pen as well as who pinch hits and when to hit and run and when players bunt to move runners over and Terry Collins
is one of the worse in field managers in baseball! Wally Backman managed Vegas to a 81-63
record and the mets promoted several key players during there season and they still won 81
games while TC lost several players to injury or major slumps or trades and could not over
come these things but Wally did! Tim Teufel is another good option he has managed in the
minors and has won and judging by the by the way he handles the third base coaching job I
would say he would be an exciting change over TC at manager but because TC is great at kissing ASS he will be the manager for at least the next two years?
Wally won’t do that but he will light a fire under the players and get a lot more out of them
than Collins could! Wally is a winner and knows what it takes to win the world series first
hand!!
And last years Wally’s Bisons were lousy and tanked to close the year. Does that mean Wally found the fountain of managerial genius sometime this offseason and turned himself from a brutal manager to a good one?
The fact that there is at least a decent size faction (i would say the vast majority less the stupid and ignorant media) in Metsland that is unhappy with TC as manager is grounds for him to go. He is causing so much negative fan energy that, even if he isn’t the true cause of the problem for losing, he still needs to go.
What exactly his negative economic impact is hard for us to estimate, but I’m pretty certain that it is enough that change is needed.
I am with you.
BTW here is another name to consider. Tony Pena and if Ron Gardenhire gets fired, that’s another.
All I can refer you to is this evidence: Alderson does not want a good coach. He wants “Yes Sir, General Alderson” coming from his field guy. Any pedigreed coach wouldnt, and shouldnt, stand for it. COnsequently, there will be no changes.
Furthermore, the beatings will continue until morale improves (to quote an old proverb).
“He wants “Yes Sir, General Alderson” coming from his field guy”
I keep hearing certain people saying this, yet I haven’t found any evidence for this. Is this just your personal opinion or do you have something to back you up?
See the article in the post by Puma. Also clear about Aldersons comments about loyalty, which is code lingo, that I’ve heard in his interviews
The Mets want Collins back to start the year so that in June when the Mets have one of the worst winning percentages in MLB again, they can fire Collins and bring in someone else. If its not Backman because he’s already walked, they’ll bring in Mr X.
I thought he did a good job his first two years, but this year he really did the team a disservice. The righty/lefty matchup thing drives me crazy. He’s mismanaged many of those situations regardless of the outcome. I think he has good instincts due to his experience, but goes against them alot by looking at the folded piece of paper he holds all game while he clicks his pen repeatedly. I just want what’s best for the team, but really can’t defend Collins after watching so many games this year…..And I agree, “the playing hard” thing is getting old. Show me a team that is not playing hard and then I’ll make the comparison..until then that’s a non-factor
Teflon Terry can’t manage a bullpen. The team did quit on him second half of 2012. I am in the camp that Alderson wants a yes guy in the dugout and agree with Chris F. Brian gives an in depth argument that I concur with. Nice job Brian. My 2 cents is that after 3 losing seasons under Collins it is time for someone else to be evaluating the players and making a lineup. The team is stagnant, some mediocre players too comfortable and the players have become used to losing. I do thank Terry for putting in the time in this transitional or poor house period. I believe the real problem is the ownership and I’m not sure that “Insulated Alderson” should be getting a free pass also. TC had very little to work with but he showed us fans very little to indicate that he is the person to take us to the next level. Like stale bread, his time has expired.
I agree that TC should be replaced. I also believe that Alderson’s approach to building this team is as exciting as watching paint dry. Certainly his roster building is puzzling, at times. However, the root of the problem is found at the ownership level. The Wilpons do not have a clue as to building a winning organization. You not only have to build through the farm, but also spend/trade at the big league level to fill in where the farm does not have the right piece. Fred and jeffy are more interested in the ego trip of MLB ownership than they are in investing the money and effort to be a winner.
When Omar Minaya was the GM they believed that they could catch lightning in a bottle with isolated big spending but the farm system did not produce enough of a support system. The Wilpon mismanagement was a major cause for unfortunate moves from Tidewater to New Orleans to Buffalo to LV.
Nelson Doubleday had the Wilpons pegged right and was happy to be rid of them.
There is more than one way to build a successful franchise. The new Dodger ownership is doing it their way, while the Cardinals do it another way. The common thread is an ownership that is fully committed to winning—-just “owning” is not enough!
The Mets are a smelly, runny mess. Collins has made mistakes, so has Alderson, who, IMO, gets much more of the blame. The person who gets most of the blame though, again, IMO, is the nameless person responsible for the team’s physical conditioning. For the past 5 season the Mets have been DECIMATED by injuries, and this year is no exception.
What is Alderson’s love affair with Omar Quintanilla? Omar’s doing his best but he simply is not a quality major-league shortstop. After cutting him last year they bring him back to take over for Tejada, whose heart and mind are clearly somewhere other than on the diamond. Quintanilla plays EVERY DAY while a much better player in Turner, who can play all infield positions, is merely a pinch-hitter? Turner proved himself in 2011, Omar is still trying to prove himself.
Citi Field is a major factor. The Wilpons are head-over-heels in love with the Brooklyn Dodgers, so they built an homage to their ballclub that the Mets can’t win in. Forget competing, forget the fans, remember the Brooklyn Dodgers. Thanks for nothing, Fred and Jeff.
Huh? The Mets are 160-235 LIFETIME at Citi Field. That’s 75 games UNDER .500!!! An average 15 under EVERY YEAR!!! Moving in the fences DID NOT HELP!!!! The park is killing the home team. The Wilpons should be forced to SELL THE TEAM! THEY ARE HORRIBLE OWNERS!!! FORGET ABOUT CONTENDING! THE BIG QUESTION IS, WHEN WILL THE METS BE ABLE TO BREAK EVEN AT HOME???!!!
Oh yeah, the final five seasons at Shea, the Mets were 225-180. That means the Mets are 120 games worse at home the past 5 years than they were the five years before that. Again, the Wilpons suck, they should be forced out of baseball. The Wilpons are the worst thing that ever happened to the Mets and their fans.