Terry Collins is a frustrating manager. He makes decisions that at times can be characterized as puzzling, head-scratching, and downright confusing. Fans have been calling for his head seemingly since the day he was hired, and at times I’ve joined those choruses, too.
But with news of Collins likely sticking around for 2015, and a weekend sweep of the Atlanta Braves in the rear-view mirror, one has to wonder if we don’t give Collins enough credit. The Mets, now 76-80 have already improved upon their 2013 record, and have done so without significant (or any) contributions from Matt Harvey, Marlon Byrd and David Wright.
We’ve seen Juan Lagares, Lucas Duda, Zack Wheeler and Jacob deGrom take major leaps forward, but with 15.5 wins missing from last year’s 74-win team, that the 2014 Mets are even sniffing a .500 record is a testament not only to Collins and pitching coach Dan Warthen, but serves as a reason to keep Collins around, despite the fans pleas for Wally Backman – or somebody else.
It’s hard to place the credit for this performance strictly with Collins, but he certainly deserves a chunk of it.
He has had an incredibly tough job as the manager of the Mets – with very limited talent on the field losing records have been all but assured before Opening Day. Collins deserves to get the chance to manage a team with some expectations – a team with some talent – before he ultimately is no longer the manager in Flushing.
I don’t think that he is ultimately the one who leads the Mets to the promised land, but he has undeniably at least earned the opportunity to try. The players seem to like him and play hard for him, and there is something to be said for that, even if it doesn’t have tangible results on the field.
Does Collins make questionable decisions with the lineup and bullpen? Absolutely, but then again, as Ted Berg of USA Today pointed out, people think every single MLB manager is bad at using his bullpen.
In the broad scheme of MLB managers Collins isn’t really that bad at either of those things. Remember how Jerry Manuel would use Fernando Nieve and Pedro Feliciano? Remember how he batted Frank Catalanotto and Gary Matthews Jr cleanup while benching Angel Pagan? Remember his reasoning for batting Luis Castillo second, how he thought “the second baseman should bat second”? Collins has never been that unreasonable.
Others say that Collins is a pawn of the front office and Sandy Alderson, to which a few things need to be said:
1. No manager who bunts as much as Collins does could be accused of being a pawn for Sandy Alderson.
2. No manager who bats Curtis Granderson and Eric Young Jr. leadoff and second as much as Collins can be accused of being a pawn for Sandy Alderson.
3. So what? Shouldn’t the manager and GM be on the same page when it comes to using players? That way when the GM acquires a player to be used in a certain way, the manager does it so the team sees a maximum benefit (e.g.- someone to be a platoon option, lefty specialist, Scott Hatteberg at first base, etc.).
It is entirely understandable that fans are getting fed up with all of the losing the Mets have been doing since 2009, and that the manager is often the scapegoat for fans’ frustrations. But what is the alternative? Another mediocre manager who will make questionable lineup and bullpen decisions? Tony LaRussa isn’t going to come out of retirement, the reincarnation of Earl Weaver isn’t walking through the door any time soon, and unless Mitchell Lichtman decides to become a manager, whoever succeeds Collins isn’t going to do anything different.
Collins deserves a chance to see what he can do with a legitimate contending team, and if it turns out that he can’t get the job done, you can move on.
Joe, win a couple of games and all is forgotten? It’s not only about the bullpen.
It’s about keeping young players on the bench instead if letting them play because he was once told playing a young player will sink you.
It’s about benching a young player that had a good day or hit a winning home run, even though he is comparable to another player.
It’s because when a player comes up from the minors scolding hot, he sits for a week while the starter continues to struggle. Which is why the kid is up to begin with.
It’s because he is always saying one thing and doing another.
It’s because he doesn’t recognize a developing situation on the field that everyone else seems to see. Like a pitcher is doing well, leave him in or laboring, take him out. Or, continuing to play a player that badly needs a rest.
It’s because he is given players passed their prime as bench strength to support a young rebuilding team, but he sees them as his saviors and screw the kids.
And yes, it’s about the bullpen also.
Amen!
I agree with your comments and much of us wanting Backman is our love for Backman too,Terry has been making moves we all cringe but overall most managers have done things we don’t like overall he is well spoken in a tough market.I think he has great skills with the media too,he has his pluses.He deserves to comeback .He really doesn’t have a leadoff hitter and he wanted to get Grandy going so batting him leadoff was getting him more atbats,it’s not like we are going anywhere this year anyway.He also seems to now have a better handling of pitchers counts so they stay healthy.When nobody is hitting you do have to move things around to try to find something that works,it’s easy to manage when you have the horses too.
Rene, your points are well regarded and under normal circumstances I may be swayed. however, two things do not allow me to be moved:
1. I would like to see if Wally can be a good MLB manager because I know Terry cannot be.
2. We have seen Terry for four years now make moves on a daily basis that are head-scratchers. From just this week: Flores was batting mostly 8th most of the month. Whenever Terry wanted to put TDA in the #3 spot, Flores went from #8 to #5. How does a player that is not worthy of batting higher than the last spot before the pitcher suddenly become your #5 guy?
You guys are being again blinded by a little success when it doesn’t matter. Could it be that the Mets are simply relaxed knowing they are out of it already?
As I have said already, Collins represents the same failed logic of the past 4 years. His in-game logic stinks, so does his lineups which normally changes on a daily basis.
Would the Mets have had a different outcome had Collins played Flores by the All Star? had he stopped playing CY/EY sooner? had he dropped Granderson from lead-off?
How about his management of the BP? Scott RIce is already paying for pitching everyday under Collins, Familia is on fumes as is Torres. In fact, there are reports of management not being happy the way that Collins has pushed his pitchers this year. deGrom was running on fumes on his last start, why send him out for the 6th inning when he was the pitcher of record already and looked tired?
Fact is that only after being told to play MDD and Flores everyday did he do so. Now Flores looks like a future part for the Mets, but only because Collins was forced to use him.
Collins is simply too flawed as a manager for the Mets to ever be successful under him. Time to move on to Wally Backman.
Wally brings energy, a WS ring and knowledge of what it takes to win it all.
For an organization starving to sell tickets, I can’t understand why they would refuse to make Wally the manager knowing that the fans will show up for games more under Wally than Collins.
Smart business decisions like that are the ones the Mets don’t make which contributes to a nearly empty stadium. And the kind of CY signing as well.
Collins was told to do so? You know this for a fact, that Sandy or someone told him to play Flores and sit Tejada?
Flores leaves for Nevada with a .553 OPS and his tail between his legs and returns to NY in late July. From May 30 through July 30, Ruben Tejada produces a .380 OBP on the way to a 700 OPS and some fine defense at SS.
Flores could not have started anytime near the All Star break since he returned after it. He certainly didn’t warrant playing all the time before the break, and the better SS had the spot through most of the summer.
When he returned, Flores was rewarded with 26 starts in 31 games and gave the Mets a 631 OPS through August and Tejada got benched while his production disappeared – likely accompanied by whatever confidence he had.
I have a hard time believing anyone commanded Terry Collins to play Wilmer Flores. On the contrary, Collins showed the vision it took to commit to playing kids. He did it in the bullpen earlier in the year, he did it with Herrera later in the year, he did it with Flores over the summer.
The kids started playing after an August 10th closed door meeting he had with Sandy Alderson that left Collins “all smiles”.
Sorry but I beg to differ Joe. Whoever succeeds Collins isn’t going to do anything different? Really? And how do you know this? Who batted Granderson for 2 months at lead off? How many 0 for 4 did he need to realize that it wasn’t putting Granderson or the team in the best position to win? TC and his LOOGY ideas about needing to have a left handed specialist instead of just utilizing his best pitchers is archaic and just a waste because it over burdens the rest of the bull pen. And the fan base hasn’t forgotten that Collins was given a two year extension. The Wilpons are not going to fire Collins and pay 2 managers for 2015 even if someone is available to manage the Mets. We should keep Collins and accept a mediocre manager because Met ownership is unwilling to spend the resources necessary to field a competitive team? Besides whoever they get may be just as mediocre. Strange philosophy Joe.
How many 0 for 4 did it take for him to realize Curtis couldn’t hit leadoff?
About 15 games.
With a history of good production at leadoff, CG took over the spot on June 15th and for the next two months – until August 10th – he produced pretty well. 48 games shows almost a 750 OPS and an ISO of 160. He scored 26 runs.
He had a horrible August, but in particular he broke down around August 11th and dropped off the map to a .366 OPS for the next 15 games. He then followed that up with a really fine September, reaching a 900+ OPS this month.
Pete, I don’t think whatever problems Terry had revolved around wasting 60+ PA at leadoff. Given the playing time Tejada and Davis got underperforming in 2013, I’d say Terry learned how to use a hook.
Things you should applaud Terry for:
Created a bullpen where none existed. If you think this is easy, look around.
Got Wilmer Flores extensive playing time.
Will show, by year end, nearly 600 PA to Soup, MDD, and KN.
Gave up on EYJ.
Gave up in CY.
Committed to playing LD against LHP.
Kept our young C fresh.
Stayed with a rookie with a nearly 5 ERA. (Hint: He’s the next RoY.)
With multiple black holes in offense, without Harvey or Noah, and his presumed season starting ace for 10 games, and really nothing in the way of bullpen on May 1, all he did was …
he’ll probably increase run scoring by 15 runs or so, and probably decrease runs allowed by over 50.
“Got Wilmer Flores extensive playing time.”
So we should applaud TC because Sandy wouldn’t let TC play him everyday when he first called him up and TC had to plead and beg and convince Sandy to do so? Please, He had the power to do this anytime he wanted to. I’m not one of them, but if anything, most fans are complaining that it should have been done earlier.
“Will show, by year end, nearly 600 PA to Soup, MDD, and KN.”
Again, not sure how this is a positive. The trio likely should have gotten much more playing time if our beloved manager wasn’t so insistent on running out Chris Young/Bobby Abreu/Eric Young… which brings me to the most laughable point…
“Gave up on EYJ.
Gave up in CY.”
Is this a joke? You’re giving credit to TC for giving up on CY in August when most fans realized he shouldn’t be on the roster in June? And has he really given up on EY considering he’s started him 8 out of the last 11 games over guys like Campbell/Kirk/Mdd?
“Committed to playing LD against LHP.”
This was only a problem for our matchup-crazed manager. Any other rational manager would have let Lucas run with the job from the start.
“Kept our young C fresh.”
What did he do differently or extra to keep him fresh? His usage was on par with any other manager, sitting him day games after night games. Nothing special at all here.
“Stayed with a rookie with a nearly 5 ERA. (Hint: He’s the next RoY.)”
Nearly 5 is well beyond an exaggeration. The highest it ever reached was 4.39, and it was promptly brought down below 4 the very next start. Was anyone seriously calling for his demotion after a few bad starts? No.
He gets credit for a very select few things, such as sticking with Wheeler and letting him have high pitch counts, but not for the majority of reasons you listed above.
Really? Rational managers typically give extended playing time against LHP when the guy has a .492 OPS against them, and a reasonable alternative is sitting on the bench?
Really? MDD deserved more playing time? When? When he left the team nearly at a sub 500 OPS at the beginning of the year (this, following his threatening performance last year) or when he returned, without a shred of power?
DeGrom didn’t have a near 5 ERA, my bad. He was only giving up a 446 slugging percentage, averaging 4 BB/9, showing only a little bit of the command he is showing now, and the team had lost 6 of the 7 games he’s started. The option at the time was whether or not he should go to the bullpen, not to Vegas. Terry decided to go further with him, and he gets credit for that.
If you can’t see that the manager moved away from OFers that at various times were highly productive as they became less so (yes, including CY. Just before they let him go, he put up a respectable July … but Terry continually moved starts away from him), and toward other players as they showed an ability to play, then maybe this will help – the Mets have the 4th best WAR (or had) comparatively by their OF vis-a-vis the rest of the NL. (I don’t like WAR typically, but I’ll bend a bit here).
That didn’t come from Andrew Brown’s sub 600 OPS, or MDD’s sub 700 OPS. It came from managing the outfield pretty astutely. As fans we’d love to hear that CY was completely banished at the end of June. How ludicrous – and absolutely stupid way to manage a team through a season. Instead he pruned his appearances.
We all agree that the game is about scoring runs, and preventing runs. Terry’s team will have improved on both ends, with what might be rationally said to be with actually less talent this year.
Start with that, and tell me he doesn’t warrant another year. He did a bunch of things that weren’t typical of what he did the year before, and maybe he learned from his mistakes. I do know this: he had a good year.
Jerry he had a good year but from where he started simply means he is becoming an adequate manager. I still say he is better suited for a veteran ball club. TC loves utilizing his veterans and is too stuck on his bullpen match ups.. Bobby Abreu being recalled in September provides zero value for 2015. So the Mets will not finish in the bottom 10 this year and are slowing climbing their way to becoming a .500 team. And for that we are grateful? Boy have we lowered our expectations! Can’t wait for next year when we’re having this same discussion around this time. Only then we’ll be above .500 and within reach of a wild card. The Phillies are going to reload. The Marlins get their ace back. The Braves will make adjustments to their roster. The Nat’s will repeat. And the Mets?
“Rational managers typically give extended playing time against LHP when the guy has a .492 OPS against them, and a reasonable alternative is sitting on the bench?”
Rational managers aren’t swayed by a tiny sample size in one year. Before this year, Duda’s OPS against lefties were .715, .662, .610. Not very good, but not as terrible as this year. And when you face about 3 righties per every lefty and you are able to post over 900 OPS against them, it’s an easy call to roll with him and hope he can rebound to an acceptable level.
“MDD deserved more playing time?”
So i have no idea what you think of Campbell/Kirk/Mdd because you flip flop your opinions on them every few games. In the above post you are “appluading” TC for playing Mdd, and now in this post you say he stinks. Even so, at the very least, Mdd’s defense alone is worth more than Bobby Abreu.
“The option at the time was whether or not he should go to the bullpen, not to Vegas. Terry decided to go further with him, and he gets credit for that”
Strolling down memory lane, around June 20th, there was “rumblings” that there needed to be a decision between Disucky in the rotation or deGrom because Gee was coming back.
However, Gee quickly had a setback, and couldn’t return until nearly 3 weeks later, when at that point Disucky had just gotten pummeled for the second straight time and deGrom had already turned around his troubles.
deGrom’s spot was never in serious jeopardy.
You might be partially correct about the CY situation. He did “slowly” move away from him and Alderson needs a lot of the blame for keeping him in the roster, but I think even so that the majority of the fans, including me, would conclude that the move away from CY was too slow and the cut wasn’t drastic enough, especially since it was clear he was not going to be part of the team after 2014 and he wasn’t going to bring back anything significant either.
The game is about scoring more runs than the other team over the course of 9 innings. Given their run scored and runs allowed figure, “Terry’s team” has less than what a team with “average luck” would have.
I don’t see any difference from 2013 TC and 2014 TC. He’s still a habitual liar, has no clue how to manage a bullpen, and prefers stinky old geezers. I do not know what you see in him.
F Scott Fitzgerald once wrote that the test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas and still function. I flatter myself I suppose.
On MDD, there is a difference between believing he has talent (I don’t) and believing that he should be given the chance to showcase that talent.
For the life of me, I can’t see how you don’t appreciate the fact that throughout the year Terry Collins increasingly took away time from veterans and gave it to younger players. It’s amazing to me.
“I can’t see how you don’t appreciate the fact that throughout the year Terry Collins increasingly took away time from veterans and gave it to younger players.”
This argument sounds a lot like the NFL domestic violence issue going on. Yes, the commissioner “apologized” for making a mistake, but everyone knew well before that it was well overdue and he clearly fucked up the process.
Yes, TC took away time from veterans, but only much much much later than most fans realized that fact The process to get to the end result is just as important, and TC was too slow to recognize changes that needed to be made.
If you can’t remember some of the small details,check some of the news archives of this site and others for dates that fans started calling for less/more playing time, and check game logs of those player’s usage, and you’ll find a significant lag in between most of them.
Well put, Jerry. I think we, myself included, can be a little too hard on him at times, and I want to see what he can do with a team that actually has some talent on it.
Joey babe, you point out the crazy things that Jerry Manuel did but leave out the critical point that Manuel was a rotten manager and he got fired. Anyone can make a similar list of crazy things for Collins and he continues to get extensions.
The only way to make TC look good is to give all the blame to Alderson and give all the credit to Collins. It’s the same shit as when he does the lefty-lefty, righty-righty stuff. When it works, Collins made all the right moves and when it doesn’t the players screwed up.
Randall! 100% on the mark! You ever wonder why Terry Collins was out of baseball so long?
“I’ve had a lot of old managers tell me very flat out: ‘Be very careful playing young players because they’re going to make just enough mistakes to get beat.’ Some of the best managers in the game have told me that.” Terry Collins 8/3/14
This quote alone is enough reason not to bring TC back.The fan base saw their all star shortstop leaves for two draft picks, their all star right fielder not get extended and traded for a minor league pitcher, their CyYoung award winning pitcher get traded for two minor leaguers, their productive reclamation project right fielder not get extended and get traded for two more minor leaguers and their 30 home run first baseman traded also for a minor leaguer. The Mets “sold” their fanbase that these transactions were the way to build a solid foundation for the franchise and the fanbase has suffered through four years of losing during this rebuilding. The fans expect to see these young players given the opportunity to play. Terry Collins philosophy flies directly against the philosophy of the front office. He should never had been extended and does not deserve to come back.
How is it that the front office allows TC to speak to the press in that fashion and yet when it comes time to accept responsibility for his mistakes he simply washes his hands and points his finger at the players and the front office. If I ever blamed my bosses for their ineptitude I’d be unemployed the next day.(Even if it was true!)
Deserved? Not in my eyes.
Coming back? Yes, so its time to get used to it.
Managers seem to be getting younger throughout the league. This is not the era of Billy Martin who can scream and yell at his guys. Now we have Brad Ausmus taking over a World Series team, and guys with little to no experience being given the keys to empires. It’s because they know how to manage people, not names on a lineup card. Collins has done some absolutely wonderful things. I think he’s held that clubhouse together with chicken wire and glue, and it has never cracked. But I for one can’t understand some of the in-game moves he does. The closest manager I can compare him to is Fredi Gonzalez. Here we have a guy with the tools to succeed, and yet he keeps failing to get the job done. I don’t want to waste two more years seeing if Collins can do it with better players. I want someone who can win now. I don’t care if it’s Collins, Backman, or Santa Claus. If we can’t be confident going into next season with our manager, how the heck are we supposed to feel confident going against playoff caliber teams?
Held the clubhouse together? This might be the pro-Collins argument I understand the least. The team’s superstar and longest-tenured player is the most vanilla, don’t rock the boat player in the league. Duda just wants to be left alone, Murphy would run through a wall for his team, Tejada doesn’t make waves. Granderson is always promoted as a great clubhouse guy, the manager has earned an extremely long rope from Lagares. Colon doesn’t even speak English, if he has any problems with Niese – he created them himself, Gee seems very mild mannered. Wheeler should be just a step beneath Lagares in the love the manager department. JDG has no reason to rock the boat.
Collins has had one difficult player in his tenure — Jordany Valdespin — and he couldn’t handle him. How would he have fared if one of his regulars was a trouble maker? How would Collins have handled a younger Gary Sheffield? Or Carl Everett? Or Al Leiter and the rest of the Cabal?
The way he handled Ike Davis and his refusal to duplicate the effort he showed in 2010 told me plenty about how Collins deals with issues. Here was a guy that the manager needed to confront and do it in a public manner to make a point to the rest of the team. But he chose to do that with Duda, instead. I don’t see how Collins picking on a guy he could potentially intimidate in Duda instead of the popular Davis makes him a great clubhouse manager. To me, it makes him a bully.
Brian, you were on a roll… One thing to throw in there: When players like Murphy getting thrown out trying to steal third with two outs, or Ankiel tries to stretch a double into a triple with two outs, they are overlooked. When a young player does that, they are benched.
Mattingly pulled Carl Crawford for his lack of hustle earlier and ever since Crawford has been producing unlike his earlier time with the Dodgers.
When can Collins set an example like that?
Well put, Brian.
Some great points here Joe. I thought moving Granderson to the leadoff spot was creative, and a solid idea. It’s easy being in the NY media to want him batting 4th and hitting homers, but (in my opinion) managing is about putting players in the best position to succeed. Granderson’s approach seemed to be more productive in the lineup when batting leadoff. Hopefully this season they can acquire a fifth place hitter so they can bat Granderson 1.
It’s understandable that Collins may not have had the most talented teams, but next year, he needs to manage this team into the playoffs, and if he doesn’t, he has to go.
James the Mets did not sign Granderson 60 million dollars to lead off. His OBP is embarrassing. His batting average is .225. Are you serious? I thought the idea is to put your players in the best possible situation for them to succeed as well as the team. This is what you want from your lead off hitter? You waste the 20-25 home runs Grandy will hit for the team. If you want a lefty-righty line up, then bat Granderson 6th and put d’Arnaud or your left fielder 5th and extend the your line up.
TexasGus. Maybe next year? Maybe Never? I’ll pick the latter seeing as how TC never makes a mistake according to him.
Like I said folks, its not pickin sh!t with the chickens. TC is coming back. Alderson is coming back. Dont be surprised if TC gets another 1 yr extension.
We are going to have to come to terms with this. TC is a terrible Xs and Os type manager that there is a perception how well he as gotten a pile of largely marginal talent players into a uniform every day and playing hard. Is it folly? Sure. Is that real? Sure. Will he do better with better players? Well, better players should perform better, and lead to better results. I suppose we will have some idea of that next year. Flores is our answer at SS. I expect a MdD/KN LF platoon despite how ridiculous that will be. I imagine Murph will be gone. We are gonna be sold that this is a better talent team, and with Harvey back, thats true. If DW and Granny dont “upgress” to normal, well, theres always 2016. Also, forget Wally, he aint ever gonna be a major part of the big squad.
My question is, How do Mets fans come to terms with accepting this FO and its personnel decisions?
Couldn’t agree with you more Chris. There’s a reason why marginal players are rated marginal. I lay the blame squarely on SA and his reclamation philosophy. I don’t like TC and his outdated X’S and O’s ideas. Marginal players of course are going to try and give you 100-110 percent of effort. They don’t want to be sent down or DFA’d. But you still are looking at a marginal player. And the Mets record these past 4 years reflect that. As for accepting this ownership and the FO? I cannot. I keep stating boycott Citifield. Boycott the sponsors. Have Met fans become so complacent that they can accept a man who didn’t manage a MLB team for how many year? 8? Think about that? Voice your displeasure the only way that can be heard. In the Wilpons pockets!